Prezhde chem polivat' gryaz'yu proroka Bozh'ego, vy by hot' ne polenilis' izuchit' ego biografiyu hotya by dlya povysheniya svoego uzkogo krugozora. Kstati, v moih slovah vyshe ya ateistov ( i vas v tom chisle) ne obizhal, a vy zhe na musul'man naezzhaete bezosnovatel'no, tak ne horosho ... vam oni spat' ne dayut, da? zaterrorizirovali bednyazhku.
Вот тут немного дрyгои взгляд на "пророка" и дела его:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.htm
Эль Фаллуджа..
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late_morning_girl
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interrupt
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late_morning_girl wrote:И чем тут восхищаться?sansagain wrote:
кем можно восхищаться - так это арабами- воевать практически голыми руками против всей той мощи что американцы понавезли
Ну как же, ведь американцы (подлецы такие), нет чтобы снять кевлары и по улицам бегать с AK-47 c плясками, чтобы все честно было
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VladimirF
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late_morning_girl wrote:Как Вы думаете - почему?Maz Vishnevskogo wrote: факт, что при всем своем вооружении один город долго отвоевывают - другой теряют....
Не знают за что воюют. Те же арабы, но объединённые и вооружённые самолётами, танками, артиллерией и др. 3 раза (1948,1967,1973) пытались, но не смогли победить крошечный Израиль, Почему? Изр. солдаты знали за что воюют - за их спиной были их жёны, дети и матери, и они знали, что с ними будет в случае их поражения.
Cogito, ergo sum - я мыслю, значит существую.
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sansagain
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interrupt wrote:late_morning_girl wrote:И чем тут восхищаться?sansagain wrote:
кем можно восхищаться - так это арабами- воевать практически голыми руками против всей той мощи что американцы понавезли
Ну как же, ведь американцы (подлецы такие), нет чтобы снять кевлары и по улицам бегать с AK-47 c плясками, чтобы все честно было
мне нравиться ваш ленинский подход- вырвать кусок из контекста и выставить
оппонента этаким недалеким человеком Но на каждого Ленина найдется своя Каплан
неужели не понятно было- или вы прикидывайтесь?
давайте восхищаться испанскими конкистадорами
поинт был- там посто нет поводов восхищаться американской армией-
ясно же армию подставили политики- ну чем тут восхищаться
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Maz Vishnevskogo
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CEBA
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Peace Maker
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Alkiev,
Yes, Islam respects the chastity of women. What can i do about it? My religion forbids me to cheat my wife. To my knowledge, Christianity and Judaism also praise the chastity of women. If you wanna cheat your wife, go ahead and do it. I don't care, that's between you and your wife. If you don't care about the spread of AIDS, thousands of orphas on the streets, thousands of divorced men and women, then it is your problem. Or maybe you wanna fornicate with other women in front of child? Go ahead.
But I will not cheat my wife, simply because I have fear of God. Those who don't fear Him, can do lots of freaking things: illegal sex, prostitution, drugg addiction, unjust killing... it is easy for them to commit these sins. Why? because they don't have fear of God. Some of these people think that they are the GODs... But truly religious muslims, christians and jews can not commit these sins, that's my belief.
I told you before that all muslims in our present world live in secular states, where authority can not enforce anything against people involved in the illegal sexual intercourse. Some authorities may say that they have shariat laws, but they don't in reality, although they may call it shariat. There is no shariat nowadays. Religion is a personal thing. Between you and God. If somebody mixes religion with politics, that's his/her problem, not mine. Islam, according to muslim sources, was revealed to humanity to solve problems of society, not to creat them. It is never a command to follow... it is rather a guidance for the humankind to be just, peaceful, righteus. There is no compulsion in the religion (quote from Kuran).
Protivostoyanie mezhdu ayatolloi Homeini i Salmanom Rushdi - eto ih lichnaya problema, a ne problem mezhdu Islamom i ateizmom... When hitler attacked Soviet Union, nobody attributed his evil action to between his catholic bachground and mainly orthodox background of USSR, right? Of course, it would be stupid to make this type of comparison.
Stalin's attrocities numbering in millions of people nobody attributes to Christian Orthodox terrorism, right? And I would not dare to make that parallel too.. but you do attribute Homeini's action to islamic ones, why? is it logical? I don't think so.
... that's my point...One good religious man said: "O God, protect me against curse satan and politics"...he put politics and satan in the same raw... see where am I heading? Good.
Skuba,
Don' trust that site, if wanna learn truth about Islam, learn something sound, something from scietific and academic sources. That site you posted here is a freaking one, it does not serve the purpose of peace, it does not help neigher muslims, no non-muslims. It is just waste of time... in a human history there have allways been insane people, but I presume you are the normal man. Only insane people can make that site.
For instance, 2*2=4. And 1000 sites say that and confirm on that, but why would someone refer to the site which says that 2*2=5? is it logical? If he says it is very logical and instists on it without a proof, than he is insane.What do you think?
Yes, Islam respects the chastity of women. What can i do about it? My religion forbids me to cheat my wife. To my knowledge, Christianity and Judaism also praise the chastity of women. If you wanna cheat your wife, go ahead and do it. I don't care, that's between you and your wife. If you don't care about the spread of AIDS, thousands of orphas on the streets, thousands of divorced men and women, then it is your problem. Or maybe you wanna fornicate with other women in front of child? Go ahead.
But I will not cheat my wife, simply because I have fear of God. Those who don't fear Him, can do lots of freaking things: illegal sex, prostitution, drugg addiction, unjust killing... it is easy for them to commit these sins. Why? because they don't have fear of God. Some of these people think that they are the GODs... But truly religious muslims, christians and jews can not commit these sins, that's my belief.
I told you before that all muslims in our present world live in secular states, where authority can not enforce anything against people involved in the illegal sexual intercourse. Some authorities may say that they have shariat laws, but they don't in reality, although they may call it shariat. There is no shariat nowadays. Religion is a personal thing. Between you and God. If somebody mixes religion with politics, that's his/her problem, not mine. Islam, according to muslim sources, was revealed to humanity to solve problems of society, not to creat them. It is never a command to follow... it is rather a guidance for the humankind to be just, peaceful, righteus. There is no compulsion in the religion (quote from Kuran).
Protivostoyanie mezhdu ayatolloi Homeini i Salmanom Rushdi - eto ih lichnaya problema, a ne problem mezhdu Islamom i ateizmom... When hitler attacked Soviet Union, nobody attributed his evil action to between his catholic bachground and mainly orthodox background of USSR, right? Of course, it would be stupid to make this type of comparison.
Stalin's attrocities numbering in millions of people nobody attributes to Christian Orthodox terrorism, right? And I would not dare to make that parallel too.. but you do attribute Homeini's action to islamic ones, why? is it logical? I don't think so.
... that's my point...One good religious man said: "O God, protect me against curse satan and politics"...he put politics and satan in the same raw... see where am I heading? Good.
Skuba,
Don' trust that site, if wanna learn truth about Islam, learn something sound, something from scietific and academic sources. That site you posted here is a freaking one, it does not serve the purpose of peace, it does not help neigher muslims, no non-muslims. It is just waste of time... in a human history there have allways been insane people, but I presume you are the normal man. Only insane people can make that site.
For instance, 2*2=4. And 1000 sites say that and confirm on that, but why would someone refer to the site which says that 2*2=5? is it logical? If he says it is very logical and instists on it without a proof, than he is insane.What do you think?
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interrupt
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Alkiev
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Peace Maker wrote:Alkiev,
Yes, Islam respects the chastity of women. What can i do about it?
With all due respect, don't you see a difference between avoiding cheating and sex outside of marriage (I mean between two unmerried adults) beecause of religios believes and because of fear of death, mutilation or inprisonment?
Peace Maker wrote:But I will not cheat my wife, simply because I have fear of God
I do not think that you have any choice provided you leave in one of those "secular" states like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (or on this matter - any "muslim" state with a few exceptions). Well you may pretend that you have but if the other option is to be killed by relatives of a "dishonored" woman (who will be killed herself by her own kin) it will influense your choice somehow
Peace Maker wrote:Protivostoyanie mezhdu ayatolloi Homeini i Salmanom Rushdi - eto ih lichnaya problema, a ne problem mezhdu Islamom i ateizmom...
For some reason I was under impression that no prominent member of muslim community was objecting this "fatwa" or watever you guys call an order to kill somebody who was careless enough to say his mind regarding muslim religion
"Никаких крыльев нет. Просто умираешь и все."
(С) гусеница.
(С) гусеница.
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Peace Maker
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To interrupt:
Vy znaete, ya vsyu zhizn' ros tozhe v musul'masnkom gosudarstve- Kazahstan, no ni odnogo sluchaya rabstva ne zamechal.
Ya ponimayu esli by vy mne priveli konkretnye sluchai rabstva, to ya s vami soglasilsya. Naprimer, "skazhem vy s'ezdili v Alma-Atu i uvideli kak v cente goroda v zindan brosili Rahimu i ne vypuskayut ee, tol'ko blagodarya massovomu vmeshatel'stvu voisk NATO i navy seals Rahimu vypustili na svobodu i ustanovili v kachestve deputata Mazhlisa"
V SMI takuyu chush govoryat poroi, poetomu v rabstvo ya ne veryu...examples please, real examples. Numbers please. And don't forget to include the number of non-muslim women enslaved as prostitutes across the globe, and compare both.
Vy znaete, ya vsyu zhizn' ros tozhe v musul'masnkom gosudarstve- Kazahstan, no ni odnogo sluchaya rabstva ne zamechal.
Ya ponimayu esli by vy mne priveli konkretnye sluchai rabstva, to ya s vami soglasilsya. Naprimer, "skazhem vy s'ezdili v Alma-Atu i uvideli kak v cente goroda v zindan brosili Rahimu i ne vypuskayut ee, tol'ko blagodarya massovomu vmeshatel'stvu voisk NATO i navy seals Rahimu vypustili na svobodu i ustanovili v kachestve deputata Mazhlisa"
V SMI takuyu chush govoryat poroi, poetomu v rabstvo ya ne veryu...examples please, real examples. Numbers please. And don't forget to include the number of non-muslim women enslaved as prostitutes across the globe, and compare both.
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RFK
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Protivostoyanie mezhdu ayatolloi Homeini i Salmanom Rushdi - eto ih lichnaya problema, a ne problem mezhdu Islamom i ateizmom... When hitler attacked Soviet Union, nobody attributed his evil action to between his catholic bachground and mainly orthodox background of USSR, right? Of course, it would be stupid to make this type of comparison.
Хомейни был высшим исламским духовным лицом в Иране и духовным лидером мусульман-шиитов во всем мире. Салман Рушди был приговорен к смерти именем ислама. Это не личная проблема Салмана Рушди а результат деятельности преступной клики бандитов-исламистов, захвативших власть в Иране.
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Peace Maker
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For some reason I was under impression that no prominent member of muslim community was objecting this "fatwa" or watever you guys call an order to kill somebody who was careless enough to say his mind regarding muslim religion [/quote]
Give me at least one name of islamic scholar who approved the action of Homeini towards Rushdi among non-shiit scholars. As I said before, shiite muslims are minority in the muslim world (less than 10%) and they have tendency to be more political compared to sunni scholars. All sunni ulema, to the best of my knowledge, disapproved his act.
Unfortunately in Iran (supposedley shiite state) in the last 3 decades we witness jumping into either extremely secular model (Shah time) or extremely theocratic model (Homeini time)... sunni Islam way is usually mederation, middle way. In shiite world the parlament (mazhlis) members are usually clergy men... in Sunni world the religion administration belongs to muftiyat (organ separate from secular administration).
By the way, even in halifats all the way untill the collaps of osman empire the sultan (secular title) delegiroval polnomochiya muftiyatu i uleme, rather than directly interfering into the religious life of people. Sultans consulted with ulema on how better implement secular ations, but these two organs, i.e. sultan's adminictration body and ulema were at pretty much independent from each other.
The interesting thing is that still in sunni muslim modern states the president and muftiyat have mutually respecting relations based on consultations, but not direct interference.
Regarding your questions, I have already explained you that it is better for you not to make parallel with the political implementation of certain states.
Uvyaznuv v politike ochen' slochno vylezti chisten'kim cheloveku-veruyushemu, dazhe esli u nego est' chistoe namerenie pomoch' ludyam. That's why I prefer to talk about canonical Islam and other canonical principles of other religions rather than making reference to the political slogans and actions of a certain state or religious group.
See, even in the christian world you can not find the truly pious religious state, be it orthodox, catholic, protestant etc... except Vatikan, but even this state is more symbolic adherent to the religious canons rather than excusively political.
However I know many pious christian people from many so called "christian states".
[/quote]
Give me at least one name of islamic scholar who approved the action of Homeini towards Rushdi among non-shiit scholars. As I said before, shiite muslims are minority in the muslim world (less than 10%) and they have tendency to be more political compared to sunni scholars. All sunni ulema, to the best of my knowledge, disapproved his act.
Unfortunately in Iran (supposedley shiite state) in the last 3 decades we witness jumping into either extremely secular model (Shah time) or extremely theocratic model (Homeini time)... sunni Islam way is usually mederation, middle way. In shiite world the parlament (mazhlis) members are usually clergy men... in Sunni world the religion administration belongs to muftiyat (organ separate from secular administration).
By the way, even in halifats all the way untill the collaps of osman empire the sultan (secular title) delegiroval polnomochiya muftiyatu i uleme, rather than directly interfering into the religious life of people. Sultans consulted with ulema on how better implement secular ations, but these two organs, i.e. sultan's adminictration body and ulema were at pretty much independent from each other.
The interesting thing is that still in sunni muslim modern states the president and muftiyat have mutually respecting relations based on consultations, but not direct interference.
Regarding your questions, I have already explained you that it is better for you not to make parallel with the political implementation of certain states.
Uvyaznuv v politike ochen' slochno vylezti chisten'kim cheloveku-veruyushemu, dazhe esli u nego est' chistoe namerenie pomoch' ludyam. That's why I prefer to talk about canonical Islam and other canonical principles of other religions rather than making reference to the political slogans and actions of a certain state or religious group.
See, even in the christian world you can not find the truly pious religious state, be it orthodox, catholic, protestant etc... except Vatikan, but even this state is more symbolic adherent to the religious canons rather than excusively political.
However I know many pious christian people from many so called "christian states".
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Peace Maker
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Хомейни был высшим исламским духовным лицом в Иране и духовным лидером мусульман-шиитов во всем мире. Салман Рушди был приговорен к смерти именем ислама. Это не личная проблема Салмана Рушди а результат деятельности преступной клики бандитов-исламистов, захвативших власть в Иране.[/quote]
Pozhaluista smotrite vyshe o shiitah. I would say that Homeini hijacked our religion from inside at that time, while 1.2 bln muslims across the globe felt uneasy because of that....
There are many people in the world who do things in the name of Islam, hotya poroi dazhe musul'man to naiti sredi nih tyazhelo. For instance, Osama hijacked our religion the same way as IRA hijacked catholics and protestants, the same way as bloody crusaders hijacked the Christianity..but it does not mean that Islam and Christianity as religions are bad, right?
See my logic?
Pozhaluista smotrite vyshe o shiitah. I would say that Homeini hijacked our religion from inside at that time, while 1.2 bln muslims across the globe felt uneasy because of that....
There are many people in the world who do things in the name of Islam, hotya poroi dazhe musul'man to naiti sredi nih tyazhelo. For instance, Osama hijacked our religion the same way as IRA hijacked catholics and protestants, the same way as bloody crusaders hijacked the Christianity..but it does not mean that Islam and Christianity as religions are bad, right?
See my logic?
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RFK
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Peace Maker wrote: There are many people in the world who do things in the name of Islam, hotya poroi dazhe musul'man to naiti sredi nih tyazhelo. For instance, Osama hijacked our religion the same way as IRA hijacked catholics and protestants, the same way as bloody crusaders hijacked the Christianity..but it does not mean that Islam and Christianity as religions are bad, right?
See my logic?
Вы правы на 100%. Хомейни, Бин Ладен и пр. узурпировали монополию на "правильный" ислам. Но проблема в том, что в исламском мире нет человека (а если есть, то голос этих людей не слышен), который сказал бы; "Бин Ладен - не мусульманин, а бандит. Басаев - не мусульманин а бандит. Хомейни - не мусульманин а узурпатор нашей религии. Люди, отрезающие заложникам головы в Ираке - не мусульмане, а бандиты. Люди, взрывающие в Тель Авиве автобусы - не мусульмане, а бандиты. Арафат - не мусульманин, а бандит. Люди, захватившие школу в Беслане, не мусульмане а бандиты" Вы, Peace Maker, готовы "подписаться" под моими словами, как мусульманин?
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GreatPoo
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Alkiev
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Peace Maker wrote:Alkiev wrote:For some reason I was under impression that no prominent member of muslim community was objecting this "fatwa" or watever you guys call an order to kill somebody who was careless enough to say his mind regarding muslim religion
Give me at least one name of islamic scholar who approved the action of Homeini towards Rushdi among non-shiit scholars.
Do you try to tell me that I should not consider shiit muslims to be muslims? It is confusing, but it's fine
Well, are there any others who just pretend to be muslims? Like in Pakistan (they still try to convince their population to do not kill those involved in sex outside marriage). Do they deserve to be called muslims? Who else?
Well are those from Saudi Arabia, Arab Emirates, Algeria, Nigeria real muslims or they just claim to be as iranians?
"Никаких крыльев нет. Просто умираешь и все."
(С) гусеница.
(С) гусеница.
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simas
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Peace Maker, you have said:
There are many people in the world who do things in the name of Islam, hotya poroi dazhe musul'man to naiti sredi nih tyazhelo. For instance, Osama hijacked our religion the same way as IRA hijacked catholics and protestants, the same way as bloody crusaders hijacked the Christianity..but it does not mean that Islam and Christianity as religions are bad, right?
See my logic?
... I sat down and tried to think about 5 predominately Muslim countries that follow democratic process that somewhat prosper -surely with 1.2 bln Muslims we can find just 5 countries, right?you know, I could not find them - almost anywhere i look, from Alegia to Indonesia Islamic countries are run either by secular dictators (like Egypt, Syria, Pakistan) , absolute monarchy (Saudi Arabia and most of the Persian Gulf) or military (Turkey, Algeria). Central Asia (with exception of Kazahstan with still sizable Russian speaking population) is all secular dictatorships of various forms . If Islam is such a good religion, why is it so, why are people so oppressed in almost every country that tries to live by Sharia? Why are people trying to do everything to escape the countries where Islam becomes a dominant force (from Albania into Italy, from North Africa into Spain and Italy ,from Central Asia into Russia) ? Why are we not seeing a flow of immigrants from prosperous Christian (or secular) states into a wonderfull world of ulema? if Islam is so good and inclusive, how does it became the the most homophobic and xenophobic brand of monotheism in the world? you surely can not tell me that this is just "few bad apples" as it was with Iran , ok I buy Iran story- what about Egypt? Syria? Algeria? most of the "stans"? All of the arab emirates? Pakistan? Why does Islam has such a horrible record in human rights (and rights women in particular) ? Why did it fail its people so badly and instead of prosperity we see widespread poverty, oppression of civil liberties and preachings of hate against anybody who cares to be different?
I do not have answers, and am interested in your opinion , Being born in Muslim state (Tajikistan) which was farely liberal compare to our neighbours, I still saw the poverty , pogroms in 1991-1993, preachings of hates from mullas and now see most of the people in Tajikistan doing all possible and impossible to travel and work someother other than Tajikistan. My personal belief is that the main issue is when State and Religion is not separated , but I will hear what you will try to say
Simas
There are many people in the world who do things in the name of Islam, hotya poroi dazhe musul'man to naiti sredi nih tyazhelo. For instance, Osama hijacked our religion the same way as IRA hijacked catholics and protestants, the same way as bloody crusaders hijacked the Christianity..but it does not mean that Islam and Christianity as religions are bad, right?
See my logic?
... I sat down and tried to think about 5 predominately Muslim countries that follow democratic process that somewhat prosper -surely with 1.2 bln Muslims we can find just 5 countries, right?you know, I could not find them - almost anywhere i look, from Alegia to Indonesia Islamic countries are run either by secular dictators (like Egypt, Syria, Pakistan) , absolute monarchy (Saudi Arabia and most of the Persian Gulf) or military (Turkey, Algeria). Central Asia (with exception of Kazahstan with still sizable Russian speaking population) is all secular dictatorships of various forms . If Islam is such a good religion, why is it so, why are people so oppressed in almost every country that tries to live by Sharia? Why are people trying to do everything to escape the countries where Islam becomes a dominant force (from Albania into Italy, from North Africa into Spain and Italy ,from Central Asia into Russia) ? Why are we not seeing a flow of immigrants from prosperous Christian (or secular) states into a wonderfull world of ulema? if Islam is so good and inclusive, how does it became the the most homophobic and xenophobic brand of monotheism in the world? you surely can not tell me that this is just "few bad apples" as it was with Iran , ok I buy Iran story- what about Egypt? Syria? Algeria? most of the "stans"? All of the arab emirates? Pakistan? Why does Islam has such a horrible record in human rights (and rights women in particular) ? Why did it fail its people so badly and instead of prosperity we see widespread poverty, oppression of civil liberties and preachings of hate against anybody who cares to be different?
I do not have answers, and am interested in your opinion , Being born in Muslim state (Tajikistan) which was farely liberal compare to our neighbours, I still saw the poverty , pogroms in 1991-1993, preachings of hates from mullas and now see most of the people in Tajikistan doing all possible and impossible to travel and work someother other than Tajikistan. My personal belief is that the main issue is when State and Religion is not separated , but I will hear what you will try to say
Simas
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MaxSt
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Military hospital's workload doubles
LANDSTUHL, Germany (CNN) -- Battle casualties received by doctors at this American military hospital in Germany have more than doubled since the Falluja operation in Iraq began, the facility's commander told reporters Sunday.
...
"Normally, we average 32 patients a day. In the last week, we've had an average of 70."
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
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Peace Maker
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- Joined: 02 May 2004 17:56
Вы правы на 100%. Хомейни, Бин Ладен и пр. узурпировали монополию на "правильный" ислам. Но проблема в том, что в исламском мире нет человека (а если есть, то голос этих людей не слышен), который сказал бы; "Бин Ладен - не мусульманин, а бандит. Басаев - не мусульманин а бандит. Хомейни - не мусульманин а узурпатор нашей религии. Люди, отрезающие заложникам головы в Ираке - не мусульмане, а бандиты. Люди, взрывающие в Тель Авиве автобусы - не мусульмане, а бандиты. Арафат - не мусульманин, а бандит. Люди, захватившие школу в Беслане, не мусульмане а бандиты" Вы, Peace Maker, готовы "подписаться" под моими словами, как мусульманин?[/quote]
Whoever commits injustice should be punished, I totally agree with you. Islam i terrorizm, po opredeleniyu, vzaimo-iskluchaemy ponyatiya. V Korane govoritsya chto ubyistvo po nespravedlivosti odnogo cheloveka - ravnosil'no ubyistvu vsego chelovechestva. Musul'maninom ne mozhet byt' teroristom, i terorist ne mozhet byt' musul'maninom. Very simple and clear.
However, I don't know what is in the hearts of people including the hearts of muslims who do mistakes, sins and great sins.... Only God knows what is in their hearts... but one thing is very clear in my religion: if I call a person disbeliver, but in actuality he is a believer, than I commit a grieveous sin in front of God, and on the day of judgement that guy will come to me and will claim a lot from me, and will enter into my rights... that's why, as muslims, we are careful.
Whoever commits injustice should be punished, I totally agree with you. Islam i terrorizm, po opredeleniyu, vzaimo-iskluchaemy ponyatiya. V Korane govoritsya chto ubyistvo po nespravedlivosti odnogo cheloveka - ravnosil'no ubyistvu vsego chelovechestva. Musul'maninom ne mozhet byt' teroristom, i terorist ne mozhet byt' musul'maninom. Very simple and clear.
However, I don't know what is in the hearts of people including the hearts of muslims who do mistakes, sins and great sins.... Only God knows what is in their hearts... but one thing is very clear in my religion: if I call a person disbeliver, but in actuality he is a believer, than I commit a grieveous sin in front of God, and on the day of judgement that guy will come to me and will claim a lot from me, and will enter into my rights... that's why, as muslims, we are careful.