Deck Care - manual
Moderator: Komissar
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
Deck Care - manual
Один мужик спрашивал меня, как восстановить перила вокруг дека. Дек у него из TREX, а перила из redwood. Перилам 4 года, и за ними никто не ухаживал. Он недавно купил дом, и хочет восстановить красивый вид перил. Вот что я ему отписАл (ХХХ – дачное место, где он купил дом). Написано вспех, так что есть очепятки и я не следил за перфектностью. Годится и для полностью редвудных деков, не только для перил.
First of all, you need to decide to sand or not to sand before applying stain. Pro's for sanding is (a) stain will penetrate and look much better on a freshly sanded surface and (b) there is some mold/dirt that is probably hard to get out in any other way. Con's: it's a LOT of work. And you have all those vertical planks that will be nightmare to sand. Another problem is that you cannot sand in only a few spots, because the sanded surface absorbs stain differently, so even after lot of stain sanded parts of the deck will look differently. So it's all or nothing when it comes to sanding.
Let's assume for now that you are not sanding. If you decide to sand (maybe, just a horizontal part of the railing), I'll be happy to advise you on a sender to buy or I can lend you one when I'm next time in XXX.
The main problem with decks in ХХХ is that they get this black mold. I did some experiments and noticed that black mold shows up even on the wood that is heavily protected by many layers of polyurethane, and it grows from inside the wood to the surface. My guess is the contractors did not use a well-dried wood for decks, and that moisture inside the deck, in combination with wet season in winder leads to that black mold build-up.
1. Preparation of wood.
Two goals to achieve here: get rid of the black mold and brighten up the wood.
a. Wash the wood with a diluted Dawn Plus (blue) dishwashing liquid (1 table spoon per 1 gal) and add a bit of bleach (1 tea spoon per 1 gal). Use a brush that is fairly soft but firm enough so that you can apply a bit of pressure, to work the washing solution into the wood. I like to use brushes that are sold in automotive stores for car washing - with long handles and fairly soft bristles. On the vertical planks you may want to work the solution into the wood with a brush on a short handle.
Now, I never owned a TREX deck, and I don't know how bleach will affect the TREX surface. TREX is a synthetic material, and I'm not sure whether bleach might discolor it or damage somehow. If you're not sure whether trex gets discoloration from the bleach - then don't risk adding bleach to the washing solution above, use just the Dawn dishwashing liquid.
b. After applying the washing solution (better not in the direct sun), let it stay on the wood for about 30 min, then powerwash it off with a power washer. Use low to medium setting on the power washer, as the strong narrow water stream might damage the redwood. You can experiment on a small piece of wood somewhere, to set your power washer to the right strength. Try to get all the soap out of the wood, even if it means washing the deck 2 times.
c. If you used bleach in the solution, on the second day, check what is happening with the mold. The whole idea of using bleach in the washing solution was to kill that black mold that was so unsightly. If mold is still there (or if you did not use bleach in the solution), more bleaching is needed. If you want to protect the trex for sure, put protective plastic sheets or tarp on it, and carefully apply a solution water:bleach to the wood with a painter brush. I suggest that you experiment first on a few really badly molded planks, to see what strength of bleach you need.
d. After bleach stayed on the wood for about 1 h (not in direct sun), wash it off with a power washer.
e. By now, hopefully, most of the mold is gone. Next step is to brighten up the grey area of the wood. You can buy a "wood brightener" solution in Home Depot or Orchard Hardware Supply or in Sears or Lowe's. Basically, it's just a solution of oxalyc acid with a bit of bleach added. Again, I don't know if it might damage TREX or not, so better use protective cover for the trex parts of the deck. Brush the brightener into the wood and then let it stay on the wood as long as instruction on the package says. Powerwash it off the wood.
Now your deck is cleaned and brigtened up as much as possible.
2. Kind of stain and sealer to use.
That is a source of endless debates and "holy wars" on the message boards related to deck care. Some people swear by one brand, others report problems with it, etc etc.
My preference is to use penetrating oil-based stains that are transparent (although tinted) or semi-transparent as I like to see the wood grain through the stain.
I know that in Russia people prefer to use oil-based paints and stains on wood as it lasts longer in the colder climate as opposed to water-based acrylic stuff. Not sure though if it's that critical in ХХХ where it never gets really cold.
Consumer Reports reports best results with Cabot brand but they use opaque. In general opaque stains last longer as they have more tiny metallic particles which in turn protect the wood. But then you cannot see the wood grain.
Many contractors prefer the brand Messmer’s http://www.messmers.com/prod_uv.html. I used it on the deck in our new vacation house. I think it holds up well (2 years) but that black mold is still showing up. I believe the brand SuperDeck is quite similar to Messmer’s in terms of composition, color choices, and action. I believe they both are metal particles suspended in the oily solution (hence you’d need to shake/stir them often while staining).
However, once you go on the message boards related to the deck care, for example http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/porch/, you will see that there are tons and tons of different stains and sealers available. Many people swear by products like Penofin or TWP 101. I believe both form sort of protective layer on the wood, as opposed to penetrating the wood. I’ve heard that layer starts peeling over time, and it’s hard to patch up, w/o removing an old one and redoing the whole deck. But it’s just what I gathered from the message board as I don’t have first-hand experience with either one.
Both Messmer’s and SuperDeck are designed to be both stains and sealers. I think they’re great stains but so-so sealers. You don’t have to apply an additional sealer over it, but you can if you want (stain has to dry well before that). On the deck in our old townhouse, I applied the CWF-UV sealer (manufactured by Flood, available in Orchard Hardware, Lowe’s maybe Home Depot): http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerSupp ... UV+FAQ.htm. I used the CLEAR variety.
Sealer does help the stain to resist mold longer BUT the trade-off is that it’s harder to patch up later. If mold did grow under the sealer (and I’ve observed that happening), then you cannot just stain over it: you need to remove (sand off or chemically strip) the sealer, then apply stain and sealer… it’s hard to get an even look with that technique. This why in our new house in XXX I decided to use just stain (Messmer’s) and not apply the sealer. However, I should say, that just staining over mold does not look great either, so at the moment I’m personally undecided whether it’s better to use stain+sealer or just stain.
In our main house in the Bay Area mold is not such a problem, and I have a redwood fence that I stained (Messmer’s) and sealed (CWF-UV) more than 6 years ago, and it still looks good, and neighbors keep asking me what did I do to the fence, to make it so nice.
One thing about the CWF-UV – soon after we’ve applied it in the townhouse, we noticed that a squirrel started gnawing on the corner of the railing. I researched this in the internet, and it looks like squirrels are indeed attracted to CWF-UV, and it takes them some time to realize it’s not really food, and by then it will be a noticeable damage.
3. How to apply stain
I really don’t think it’s a good idea to use the sprayer. Since the main goal of staining is not just beautify but also protect the wood, I suggest to use paint brush and literally work in the stain into the wood, so that little cracks and knots are all covered by penetrating stain. The vertical plans will be a pain, especially on the outside. There I used a small roller (6-8”) on a short handle. Roller also will come in handy when applying a finishing layer of stain over the horizontal surface – it will ensure an even application.
I’d suggest 2 applications of stain, separated by at least 2 days (if weather is hot) or maybe a week, so that the first layer of stain dries out well.
TREX will absorb the stain, and you cannot get it out easily, so to avoid spots on TREX make sure you covered all the trex surface with tarp.
Same applies to sealer, should you decide to apply it – brush for all easy-to-reach surfaces, small roller on harder-to-reach areas.
4. Finishing touches
Nothing really… maybe to try to scrape out a couple of stained spots that accidentally ended up on Trex…
First of all, you need to decide to sand or not to sand before applying stain. Pro's for sanding is (a) stain will penetrate and look much better on a freshly sanded surface and (b) there is some mold/dirt that is probably hard to get out in any other way. Con's: it's a LOT of work. And you have all those vertical planks that will be nightmare to sand. Another problem is that you cannot sand in only a few spots, because the sanded surface absorbs stain differently, so even after lot of stain sanded parts of the deck will look differently. So it's all or nothing when it comes to sanding.
Let's assume for now that you are not sanding. If you decide to sand (maybe, just a horizontal part of the railing), I'll be happy to advise you on a sender to buy or I can lend you one when I'm next time in XXX.
The main problem with decks in ХХХ is that they get this black mold. I did some experiments and noticed that black mold shows up even on the wood that is heavily protected by many layers of polyurethane, and it grows from inside the wood to the surface. My guess is the contractors did not use a well-dried wood for decks, and that moisture inside the deck, in combination with wet season in winder leads to that black mold build-up.
1. Preparation of wood.
Two goals to achieve here: get rid of the black mold and brighten up the wood.
a. Wash the wood with a diluted Dawn Plus (blue) dishwashing liquid (1 table spoon per 1 gal) and add a bit of bleach (1 tea spoon per 1 gal). Use a brush that is fairly soft but firm enough so that you can apply a bit of pressure, to work the washing solution into the wood. I like to use brushes that are sold in automotive stores for car washing - with long handles and fairly soft bristles. On the vertical planks you may want to work the solution into the wood with a brush on a short handle.
Now, I never owned a TREX deck, and I don't know how bleach will affect the TREX surface. TREX is a synthetic material, and I'm not sure whether bleach might discolor it or damage somehow. If you're not sure whether trex gets discoloration from the bleach - then don't risk adding bleach to the washing solution above, use just the Dawn dishwashing liquid.
b. After applying the washing solution (better not in the direct sun), let it stay on the wood for about 30 min, then powerwash it off with a power washer. Use low to medium setting on the power washer, as the strong narrow water stream might damage the redwood. You can experiment on a small piece of wood somewhere, to set your power washer to the right strength. Try to get all the soap out of the wood, even if it means washing the deck 2 times.
c. If you used bleach in the solution, on the second day, check what is happening with the mold. The whole idea of using bleach in the washing solution was to kill that black mold that was so unsightly. If mold is still there (or if you did not use bleach in the solution), more bleaching is needed. If you want to protect the trex for sure, put protective plastic sheets or tarp on it, and carefully apply a solution water:bleach to the wood with a painter brush. I suggest that you experiment first on a few really badly molded planks, to see what strength of bleach you need.
d. After bleach stayed on the wood for about 1 h (not in direct sun), wash it off with a power washer.
e. By now, hopefully, most of the mold is gone. Next step is to brighten up the grey area of the wood. You can buy a "wood brightener" solution in Home Depot or Orchard Hardware Supply or in Sears or Lowe's. Basically, it's just a solution of oxalyc acid with a bit of bleach added. Again, I don't know if it might damage TREX or not, so better use protective cover for the trex parts of the deck. Brush the brightener into the wood and then let it stay on the wood as long as instruction on the package says. Powerwash it off the wood.
Now your deck is cleaned and brigtened up as much as possible.
2. Kind of stain and sealer to use.
That is a source of endless debates and "holy wars" on the message boards related to deck care. Some people swear by one brand, others report problems with it, etc etc.
My preference is to use penetrating oil-based stains that are transparent (although tinted) or semi-transparent as I like to see the wood grain through the stain.
I know that in Russia people prefer to use oil-based paints and stains on wood as it lasts longer in the colder climate as opposed to water-based acrylic stuff. Not sure though if it's that critical in ХХХ where it never gets really cold.
Consumer Reports reports best results with Cabot brand but they use opaque. In general opaque stains last longer as they have more tiny metallic particles which in turn protect the wood. But then you cannot see the wood grain.
Many contractors prefer the brand Messmer’s http://www.messmers.com/prod_uv.html. I used it on the deck in our new vacation house. I think it holds up well (2 years) but that black mold is still showing up. I believe the brand SuperDeck is quite similar to Messmer’s in terms of composition, color choices, and action. I believe they both are metal particles suspended in the oily solution (hence you’d need to shake/stir them often while staining).
However, once you go on the message boards related to the deck care, for example http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/porch/, you will see that there are tons and tons of different stains and sealers available. Many people swear by products like Penofin or TWP 101. I believe both form sort of protective layer on the wood, as opposed to penetrating the wood. I’ve heard that layer starts peeling over time, and it’s hard to patch up, w/o removing an old one and redoing the whole deck. But it’s just what I gathered from the message board as I don’t have first-hand experience with either one.
Both Messmer’s and SuperDeck are designed to be both stains and sealers. I think they’re great stains but so-so sealers. You don’t have to apply an additional sealer over it, but you can if you want (stain has to dry well before that). On the deck in our old townhouse, I applied the CWF-UV sealer (manufactured by Flood, available in Orchard Hardware, Lowe’s maybe Home Depot): http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerSupp ... UV+FAQ.htm. I used the CLEAR variety.
Sealer does help the stain to resist mold longer BUT the trade-off is that it’s harder to patch up later. If mold did grow under the sealer (and I’ve observed that happening), then you cannot just stain over it: you need to remove (sand off or chemically strip) the sealer, then apply stain and sealer… it’s hard to get an even look with that technique. This why in our new house in XXX I decided to use just stain (Messmer’s) and not apply the sealer. However, I should say, that just staining over mold does not look great either, so at the moment I’m personally undecided whether it’s better to use stain+sealer or just stain.
In our main house in the Bay Area mold is not such a problem, and I have a redwood fence that I stained (Messmer’s) and sealed (CWF-UV) more than 6 years ago, and it still looks good, and neighbors keep asking me what did I do to the fence, to make it so nice.
One thing about the CWF-UV – soon after we’ve applied it in the townhouse, we noticed that a squirrel started gnawing on the corner of the railing. I researched this in the internet, and it looks like squirrels are indeed attracted to CWF-UV, and it takes them some time to realize it’s not really food, and by then it will be a noticeable damage.
3. How to apply stain
I really don’t think it’s a good idea to use the sprayer. Since the main goal of staining is not just beautify but also protect the wood, I suggest to use paint brush and literally work in the stain into the wood, so that little cracks and knots are all covered by penetrating stain. The vertical plans will be a pain, especially on the outside. There I used a small roller (6-8”) on a short handle. Roller also will come in handy when applying a finishing layer of stain over the horizontal surface – it will ensure an even application.
I’d suggest 2 applications of stain, separated by at least 2 days (if weather is hot) or maybe a week, so that the first layer of stain dries out well.
TREX will absorb the stain, and you cannot get it out easily, so to avoid spots on TREX make sure you covered all the trex surface with tarp.
Same applies to sealer, should you decide to apply it – brush for all easy-to-reach surfaces, small roller on harder-to-reach areas.
4. Finishing touches
Nothing really… maybe to try to scrape out a couple of stained spots that accidentally ended up on Trex…
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 296
- Joined: 23 Jul 2002 07:18
- Location: CA
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 3417
- Joined: 23 May 2001 09:01
- Location: Laguna Beach , CA
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 296
- Joined: 23 Jul 2002 07:18
- Location: CA
Komissar wrote:Какая морилка использовалась?
Не помню Что-то 2 в 1(stainer and sealer) из большого ведра из Home Depot. Дек из редвуда и на ведре было *редвуд*. Наверное нужно было брать совсем прозрачную, а так получилось пятнами и то не сразу, а недели через три проявилось, хотя я прокрасила валиком всю поверхность на два раза.
Last edited by Анфиса on 12 Jul 2006 19:07, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
Yikes. Хорошие морилки на масляной основе, к-рые сохнут НЕ БЫСТРО обеспечивают довольно ровное проникновение, т.к. у масла есть время везде расползтись и все пропитать, прежде чем засохнуть. Хотя дерево есть дерево - у него разная структура и одни части впитывают сильнее других.
Как правило, я стараюсь избегать 2-ин-1 продуктов.
Как правило, я стараюсь избегать 2-ин-1 продуктов.
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 296
- Joined: 23 Jul 2002 07:18
- Location: CA
Пропиталось совсем неплохо, вода на деке стоит, пока солнце не высушит. Раньше всё впитывалось в поверхность и дек всегда сухой А неравномерный цвет только я и вижу, дек - с футбольное поле.
А чем можно покрасить стулья из тика на улице чтобы цвет сохранить, солнце и вода скоро изменят цвет поверхности?
А чем можно покрасить стулья из тика на улице чтобы цвет сохранить, солнце и вода скоро изменят цвет поверхности?
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
Анфиса wrote:А чем можно покрасить стулья из тика на улице чтобы цвет сохранить, солнце и вода скоро изменят цвет поверхности?
Протрите (щедро, давая маслу впитаться) с Watco Danish Oil - если хочется покраснее, возьмите cherry тон, если хочется просто сохранить старый цвет, возьмите natural тон. Дайте высохнуть пару дней, потом протрите еще раз.
Через год - если выглядит еще хорошо - протереть 1 раз. Если уже начал выцветать - повторить 2-х разовую обработку.
http://www.woodworker.com/cgi-bin/searc ... tco&go=400
У них есть и продукт специально для тика, но я им сам никогда не пользовался.
Не поддавайтесь на покупку смеси с полиуретаном - потом лак начнет облезать, замучаетесь.
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 20597
- Joined: 10 Sep 2004 23:19
- Location: RU-East Coast-CA-East Coast
Не совсем в тему, но тоже почти про дек, точнее, про крыльцо. Нужно покрасить крыльцо масляной краской (по кондоминиумному стандарту). Крыльцо уже ошкурили и помыли с отбеливателем. Правильно я понимаю, что под масляную краску никакого праймера-силера или другой предварительной обработки для дерева не нужно?
"If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part." Richard Feynman
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 20597
- Joined: 10 Sep 2004 23:19
- Location: RU-East Coast-CA-East Coast
Спасибо за советы!
Кстати, что лучше - сначала мыть или сначала шкурить? У нас краска во многих местах отстала пластами, под которыми растет "зелень" (думаю, что пленка водорослей). Поэтому мы решили сначала сошкурить отстающую краску, а уже потом помыть и потереть жесткой щеткой для деков, чтобы содрать зелень. Но получается, что при этом краска потом будет приставать хуже, или надо будет шкурить второй раз. А если сначала мыть, неясно, удастся ли избавиться от этой зелени по максимуму, хотя, возможно, после отбеливателя и масляной краски это уже будет неважно - расти на том же месте она не будет.
И стОит ли пытаться использовать небольшие валики для масляной краски, особенно для вертикальных плоскостей и столбиков, или лучше все красить кистями?
Нам надо покрасить еще два балкона, так что любые советы по оптимизации процесса принимаются с благодарностью.
Кстати, что лучше - сначала мыть или сначала шкурить? У нас краска во многих местах отстала пластами, под которыми растет "зелень" (думаю, что пленка водорослей). Поэтому мы решили сначала сошкурить отстающую краску, а уже потом помыть и потереть жесткой щеткой для деков, чтобы содрать зелень. Но получается, что при этом краска потом будет приставать хуже, или надо будет шкурить второй раз. А если сначала мыть, неясно, удастся ли избавиться от этой зелени по максимуму, хотя, возможно, после отбеливателя и масляной краски это уже будет неважно - расти на том же месте она не будет.
И стОит ли пытаться использовать небольшие валики для масляной краски, особенно для вертикальных плоскостей и столбиков, или лучше все красить кистями?
Нам надо покрасить еще два балкона, так что любые советы по оптимизации процесса принимаются с благодарностью.
"If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part." Richard Feynman
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 7787
- Joined: 14 Jan 2003 06:27
- Location: NN->Baltimore, MD
Воспользуюсь случаем и еще раз скажу Комиссару спасибо: спасибо, Комиссар! Мы этой весной привели в порядок дек, пользуясь советами примерно годичной давности. Получилось очень, очень прилично, особенно в свете заходящего солнца.
P.S. Надо будет теперь и "дечную" мебель в порядок привести - спасибо за рекомендацию Watco Danish Oil.
P.S. Надо будет теперь и "дечную" мебель в порядок привести - спасибо за рекомендацию Watco Danish Oil.
-
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 64661
- Joined: 12 Jul 2002 16:38
- Location: г.Москва, ул. Б. Лубянка, д.2
bulochka wrote:Спасибо за советы!
Кстати, что лучше - сначала мыть или сначала шкурить? У нас краска во многих местах отстала пластами, под которыми растет "зелень" (думаю, что пленка водорослей). Поэтому мы решили сначала сошкурить отстающую краску, а уже потом помыть и потереть жесткой щеткой для деков, чтобы содрать зелень. Но получается, что при этом краска потом будет приставать хуже, или надо будет шкурить второй раз. А если сначала мыть, неясно, удастся ли избавиться от этой зелени по максимуму, хотя, возможно, после отбеливателя и масляной краски это уже будет неважно - расти на том же месте она не будет.
И стОит ли пытаться использовать небольшие валики для масляной краски, особенно для вертикальных плоскостей и столбиков, или лучше все красить кистями?
Нам надо покрасить еще два балкона, так что любые советы по оптимизации процесса принимаются с благодарностью.
Как говорят woodworkers, preparation is 90% of the job.
Рекомендую сначала пройтись железным скребком, стараясь максимально отодрать всю отслоившуюся краску. Потом помыть бличем и жесткими щетками. Потом пошкурить, наверное, достаточно грубой (50-80) шкуркой. Orbital sender вам поможет. В общем, так или иначе, но нет ничего лучше для масляной краски, чем свежепошкуренное дерево.
Кстати, думаю, все-таки лучше с праймером (типа олифы). чем с экстра-слоем краски. Масляный праймер проникает в дерево глубже, чем краска, (к-рая скорее образует поверхностный слой), и тем самым дерево будет дольше предохранятся от рассыхания и плесени.
В вопросе кисть против валика - я бы сказал, везде, где вы можете подлезть с кистью - надо праймить кистью и накладывать 1-й слой краски кистью. Кисть "врабатывает" праймер/краску в дерево сильнее, чем валик. Последний слой краски, когда важна ровность поверхности, можно валиком. Для более менее узких поверхностей, типа перил или вертикальных планок/столбиков лучше подойдет маленький узкий валик, а не стандартный "стенно-потолочный" 1-футовый.
Там, где с кистью просто не подлезть или не достать - там вопросов нет, надо валиком.