МВА - кабинет профориентации

[AlienCreature]

And then you get those poor folks with no prior business experience, no trust-fund, no secured job-offer and no sponsorship. Guess how much time they have to party

А еще есть гении то рождения, которые party all night и закончили с 21-ой отметкой A, причем так, что даже декан офигел, потому что в нашем классе таких было аж 2 и все знали, что они даже не готовятся к экзаменам.

zhk

We have such people, but in our case they are no geniuses but rather CPAs taking Accounting I
And there's still recruiting and oher events that are very time-consuming

[Nyurka]

Michigan has a curve where 60% (70% in elective courses) get A or A-.

Not true, Michigan has a curve where no more than 20% can get an A, and the rest follows some sort of forced bell-shaped distribution. Also, grades in Michigan Business School (now Ross School of Business) are not A, B, C, D but Excellent, Good, Pass and Low Pass, hence no + or -. Only Excellent grade can be considered A or A- on a regular scale.

How many people have to tell you are are wrong about most schools you've mentioned in your post before you stop posing as an MBA expert?

[DanielMa]

Michigan has a curve where 60% (70% in elective courses) get A or A-.

Not true, Michigan has a curve where no more than 20% can get an A, and the rest follows some sort of forced bell-shaped distribution. Also, grades in Michigan Business School (now Ross School of Business) are not A, B, C, D but Excellent, Good, Pass and Low Pass, hence no + or -. Only Excellent grade can be considered A or A- on a regular scale.

How many people have to tell you are are wrong about most schools you've mentioned in your post before you stop posing as an MBA expert?

Ok, you are mostly right. Although it is 25% for Excellent in Core classes and 35% for Excellent in elective classes

http://www.bus.umich.edu/Academics/Degr ... bution.htm

And the grade Good is considered an A-, although for purposes of calculating honors it is only 3 points. As a result of this curve, it is almost impossible to graduate without at least "Distinction" honors.

The bottom line is, I easily got A's in all of my MBA studies with minimal brain efforts. Academically, it was a joke.

[Nyurka]

Michigan has a curve where 60% (70% in elective courses) get A or A-.

Not true, Michigan has a curve where no more than 20% can get an A, and the rest follows some sort of forced bell-shaped distribution. Also, grades in Michigan Business School (now Ross School of Business) are not A, B, C, D but Excellent, Good, Pass and Low Pass, hence no + or -. Only Excellent grade can be considered A or A- on a regular scale.

How many people have to tell you are are wrong about most schools you've mentioned in your post before you stop posing as an MBA expert?

Ok, you are mostly right. Although it is 25% for Excellent in Core classes and 35% for Excellent in elective classes

http://www.bus.umich.edu/Academics/Degr ... bution.htm

And the grade Good is considered an A-, although for purposes of calculating honors it is only 3 points. As a result of this curve, it is almost impossible to graduate without at least "Distinction" honors.

The bottom line is, I easily got A's in all of my MBA studies with minimal brain efforts. Academically, it was a joke.

Initially you said 60-70% which is very far from the truth. And you said there was no curve, anywhere

For you the grade Good was considered A-, because you were not a Business School student and your transcript had to have letter grades. For those in MBA and other business school degrees and programs, grade on the granscript is GD (or EX, PS) because there are no letter grades in business school. There is obviously a difference between EX and GD and it is not the same as between A and A- for non-business students (since non-business students have way more grades in the scale given all +s and -s. Difference between EX and GD is roughly like between A and B for a business school student when there are only 4 grades within the scale. About 65% of every class will get GD or PS according to the forced curve. There is no such thing as "Distinction" in Michigan MBA program.

I am happy you've gotten your A's. I am sure it depends on how many and which classes you've taken. As someone who has not gone through a full course of study in an MBA, please stop your arrogant remarks about studying there being a joke.

[zhk]

because there are no letter grades in business school.

Я писал выше - в Чикаго letter grades. Никаких там pass, excellent и прочее. A, B, C, D, F.

zhk

[Nyurka]

because there are no letter grades in business school.

Я писал выше - в Чикаго letter grades. Никаких там pass, excellent и прочее. A, B, C, D, F.

zhk

Это я DanielMa объясняла про Michigan Business school. В которой он брал классы, но все равно систему не знает. Все сказанное мной выше относится только к этой школе.

[DanielMa]

Initially you said 60-70% which is very far from the truth. And you said there was no curve, anywhere

For you the grade Good was considered A-, because you were not a Business School student and your transcript had to have letter grades. For those in MBA and other business school degrees and programs, grade on the granscript is GD (or EX, PS) because there are no letter grades in business school. There is obviously a difference between EX and GD and it is not the same as between A and A- for non-business students (since non-business students have way more grades in the scale given all +s and -s. Difference between EX and GD is roughly like between A and B for a business school student when there are only 4 grades within the scale. About 65% of every class will get GD or PS according to the forced curve. There is no such thing as "Distinction" in Michigan MBA program.

I am happy you've gotten your A's. I am sure it depends on how many and which classes you've taken. As someone who has not gone through a full course of study in an MBA, please stop your arrogant remarks about studying there being a joke.

I wrote 60-70%, because I considered Excellent and Good to be an "A". On their site, they are listing Excellent as equal to an A+ or A, and Good as equal to A-. Also, Michigan Business School does have honors "High Distinction" and "Distinction"

http://www.bus.umich.edu/Academics/Degr ... Honors.htm


And I did go through a full course of study in an MBA program.

[Nyurka]

I wrote 60-70%, because I considered Excellent and Good to be an "A". On their site, they are listing Excellent as equal to an A+ or A, and Good as equal to A-. .

Did you read what I was trying to explain above? This equivalency exists only for non-business school students. Business school students never get A or A- into their transcript. Excellent and Good is not the same grade, even though in their translation to non-business school students they made it seem like it they are both an A. Think for a second about the meaning of "excellent" and "good". 70% cannot be "excellent".

Also, Michigan Business School does have honors "High Distinction" and "Distinction"

http://www.bus.umich.edu/Academics/Degr ... Honors.htm

This is new. Did not exist 5 years ago.

However "Note that value points as listed are not a grading scale."

And I did go through a full course of study in an MBA program.

What school?

[DanielMa]

Did you read what I was trying to explain above? This equivalency is only for non-business school student only. Business school students never get A or A- into their transcript. Excellent and Good is not the same grade, even though in their translation to non-business school students they made it seem like it they are both an A. Think for a second about the meaning of "excellent" and "good". 70% cannot be "excellent".

GD is listed as an A- not just for non-business school students, but for business school students also. Although I agree that it doesn't show up as an A-. 25% can be excellent, and another 35% can be good in core classes. By the way, in law school, we only got Pass for MBA courses, regardless of our grades in the course.

[kanada]

......

Большое спасибо за интересные посты. Было очень интересно почитать.

Кстати .... то, что Вы описали, очень сильнo смахивает на мою индустрию.

Очень много людей делают роковую ошибку, когда бросают свою работу и идут в law school. Я, так понимаю, это везде так.

[Toto]

And then you get those poor folks with no prior business experience, no trust-fund, no secured job-offer and no sponsorship. Guess how much time they have to party

At my school common understanding was as follows: there are three parts to being in b-school: academics, recruiting (i.e. job search) and partying/socializing. You can only do two out of three well. This is not to say that you ignore one part completely, but you somewhat de-prioritze it

Regarding the poor people with no prior business experience, no trust fund and no offer - this pretty much describes about 1/3 of the class. It's not uncommon. In fact, top banks and consulting companies are very open to people with no prior business experience. I agree that recruiting is stressful and not everyone will get a job with the top firm in whatever industry they chose to pursue, but most people I know got a good job in their area of interest.

[boblenin]

Терять $200K x 1.5 = $300K за время учебы было бы довольно странно.
Когда их потом отработаешь (особенно учитывая начальные условия).

Я бы предложил автору не бросать прибыльную работу, найти Топ part-time или weekend программу, из зарплаты платить за обучение. Не торопиться - пусть это займет не 1.5 года а 3, зато $200K x 3 = $600K будут в кармане.

А потом с "новыми" знаниями и с позиции $200К+ зарплаты подумать - может быть на фиг этот WALL STREET - лучше в Менло Парк (СА) на Sand Hill Road - к венчурным капиталистам податься за финансированием для какой-нибудь идеи и заработать больше чем все эти buy-side/sell-side аналитики.

[makay855]

Потому что мне в свое время пршлось довольно наслушаться того что вы тут постите - все хорошо, все находят работу, да тут за нашими выпускниками очередь стоит, да вы че, все будет ти-топ, school is so much fun, yada-yada-yada. Guess what, it turned out to be not fun at all, getting a job was so damn hard, your big brand school name doesn't help you, the overall experience has been extremely negative and miserable and definetely way below my expectations that were inflated by people like you and the school officers. This is why my key point is - manage your expectations. And I really wish I was prepared for this - the reality - not for the castles in the air that the admission office and alums who have forgotten how it was were painting for me.

ha-ha-ha
i told ya so!!! you did not believe previously me when i was saying this.


p.s. you don't know the worst part yet - how to keep the job after you find it.
*because there are a ton of people standing on the street trying to get what you've got*

p.p.s. and yes, in a bad year (2001-2002), people from Columbia and Wharton could not find a job for 12+ months after graduation. *and it is just painful to think about all these loans*

[makay855]

The bottom line is, I easily got A's in all of my MBA studies with minimal brain efforts. Academically, it was a joke.

unfortunately, i tend to agree with DanielMa on this. I have friends who did JD/MBA at my school, and they all said the same thing, - that it much harder to get a good grade at a law school vs. b-school.

The bottom line is, if somebody is looking for a solid, academic program, MBA is not it. It gives a broad, "well-rounded" overview of different business areas - something here (operations management), something there (marketing), a little here (accounting) and a little there (finance), which does not make anybody a real expert in any of those fields. From an academic standpoint, MS in Finance would be a much better choice if someone really wants to study finance applications.

Those people in my program who had BS in Finance/Engineering/Math/Stats sailed right thru and had a lot of time for jobsearch and parties. However, it was challenging for those poor souls who did not have a strong undegrad in quant areas. Then yes, to them, an intro Stats class did look like an eye-opening experience academically.

MBA is all about job search. As my econ professor lamented during our 1st semester - it is a 2-year long job search. Academic knowledge is a secondary (or even tertiary) goal for an average MBA student.

It may feel like you learn "something" in those 6 to 10 week classes, but the truth is, it is not enough to become a "real" expert. Once those fresh hires arrive on the floor, they start crying about "their balance sheet not balancing". So much for their “expertise”, “thinking outside the box” and “hitting the ground running”.

[duration]

большей билиберды не слышала еще. Где вы там учились?

Dear urbanista, did you go to an Ivey league school? Did you personally go to Wall Street having background in engineering? I believe the answer is no and no. So who are you to question my experience if my answer is yes and yes? And don't even try to make this discussion personal - that doesn't make you look good. The healthy dose of pessimism hasn't hurt anybody yet.

Я закончил Top-5 школу (причем именно в зло*бучий 2001 год , pardon my french ). Работаю в Asset Management. До етого был программером.

Поетому спрашивайте.

[AlienCreature]

, which does not make anybody a real expert in any of those fields. From an academic standpoint, MS in Finance would be a much better choice if someone really wants to study finance applications.

I mostly agree with you, but I don't think you understand the purpose of the MBA program though. It is not designed to make you "a real expert". None of the post-MBA jobs requires it. Sell side jobs are no rocket science and being hardworking is much more important than being smart; i-bankers, traders and sales people don't cure cancer, they do deals and any top MBA program can adequately prepare you for this job Asset management requires more expertise that simply can not be acquired in any academic setting, this is why it is much more difficult to get to this field without prior transactional or research experience.

Other financial programs that you mentioned are good if you want to be a financial engineer, not a business/sales person or a deal maker.

[AlienCreature]

p.p.s. and yes, in a bad year (2001-2002), people from Columbia and Wharton could not find a job for 12+ months after graduation. *and it is just painful to think about all these loans*

yep. that is right.

[makay855]

but I don't think you understand the purpose of the MBA program though. It is not designed to make you "a real expert". None of the post-MBA jobs requires it. Sell side jobs are no rocket science and being hardworking is much more important than being smart; i-bankers, traders and sales people don't cure cancer, they do deals and any top MBA program can adequately prepare you for this job Asset management requires more expertise that simply can not be acquired in any academic setting, this is why it is much more difficult to get to this field without prior transactional or research experience.

no, i understand the purpose of the MBA program. My point and DanielMa's point was that it is not <i> an academically rigorous program </i>.

Putting that aside - yes, it does serve the purpose of supplying fresh bodies to the Street, and yes, being an expert - or a real smart ass- could potentially hurt if your entry-level job requires you to make the PowerPoint charts look pretty.

p.s. Allien Creature, it is refreshing to see that some of your posts start to make some sense (vs. say, 3 years ago). way to go

[AlienCreature]

no, i understand the purpose of the MBA program. My point and DanielMa's point was that it is not <i> an academically rigorous program </i>.

Of course it isn't rigorous. But it is fairly complex and requires lot of work regardless, don't tell me that you can get a solid grade in classes like Applied Regression Analysis or Earnings Quality without putting in a lot of hours. And you certainly learn a TON about financial statements, analysis, strategy and so on. At least in my program you do.

Again, if you're looking to be a quant and want some kind of number-crunching geeky job for the rest of your life, the MBA is probably not for you.

Putting that aside - yes, it does serve the purpose of supplying fresh bodies to the Street, and yes, being an expert - or a real smart ass- could potentially hurt if your entry-level job requires you to make the PowerPoint charts look pretty.

If you worked in banking you certainly know that the senior bankers can't even do that. I doubt they remember what Deferred Tax Liability is, this is why they make young guys do the technical interviews This is a sales job, on the senior level pretty much every WS job is a sales job and you don't need to be a nuber-crunching guru to do it. You do need people skills and network, and this is when your MBA program comes in handy.

[colona]

no, i understand the purpose of the MBA program. My point and DanielMa's point was that it is not <i> an academically rigorous program </i>.

p.s. Allien Creature, it is refreshing to see that some of your posts start to make some sense (vs. say, 3 years ago). way to go

You seem to understand rigour in your very own way. MBA is rigorous in what it is intended to be - Business Administration (not Finance, Marketing, etc). Of course MS in Finance would be more rigorous in Finance, and MS in Fixed Income would be more rigorous in that field than Finance, and MS in CDOs would more rigorous than Fixed Income (just making it up to make a point).

As far as sailing through goes, it is simple bragging. Engineers sailed through Stats and Finance and screwed Strategy, BS in Business Administration majors enjoyed the first semester as it was repetition for them and got hammered in the second semester with the advanced classes. While each class on its own is not a rocket science, once you add five-six of them and a job search on top, all together it is quite demanding.

[duration]

The bottom line is, I easily got A's in all of my MBA studies with minimal brain efforts. Academically, it was a joke.

It all depends on how competitive the class is...One thing I learned in B-school and afterwards, that generally speaking the classes, the instructors and all this stuff is basically the same in Top-5 school and Bottom-10 (it might be exaggeration, but still....)...yes, one can argue that in Top-5 you might have a chance to attend classes taught by Nobel laureates...but I am not sure I see much value in this opportunity - Nobel laureates do not necessarily make good teachers....What really makes the difference - the quality of the student body !!! You have extremely smart, ambitious people in Top-5 and it is worth a ton.

[Dimon_]

А как соотносится MS in Finance с MBA in Finance в плане перспектив для будущей карьеры. Программа MSF позиционируется как более углубленное изучение финансов чем MBA. И как компании смотрят на мастера по сравнению с MBA.

[TheKonst]

...Если же он ошиабается и у него нет никаких навыков, то это тоже не проблема, потому что value такого risky hire все равно выше с точки зрения оценки такого сотрудника как опциона согласно Black-Scholes, если Вы рассмотрите все 3 ситуации.

Поэтому отбросьте Все сомнения - Я ваш лучший risky hire этого сезона.

zhk

you've made my day. Особенно "отбросьте Все сомнения". Действительно, какие могут быть сомнения, когда Black-Scholes.

[makay855]

you've made my day. Особенно "отбросьте Все сомнения". Действительно, какие могут быть сомнения, когда Black-Scholes.

етим демонстрируется вся глубина полученных знаний в области options и прочих разных derivatives. 6-week modules, ето не хухры-мухры.

[TheKonst]

you've made my day. Особенно "отбросьте Все сомнения". Действительно, какие могут быть сомнения, когда Black-Scholes.

етим демонстрируется вся глубина полученных знаний в области options и прочих разных derivatives. 6-week modules, ето не хухры-мухры.

Шутки-шутками, а вот беседовал я как-то с одной девицей... вроде как из Wharton, но не уверен... Она, по идее, на trading floor шла, но меня как кванта попросили поговорить с ней вообстче и про опционы в частности . Так она меня под конец интервьию в полный ступор ввела: вроде все слова правильные говорит, но все бред получается. Умная девочка, наверное далеко пойдет... Если научится понимать кому какие слова говорить не стоит.