К сторонникам Обамы

[Могулия]

А меня поражает с какой легкостью Обама умеет повернуть самую затруднительную ситуацию в свою сторону:

"As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me."
Просто гениальный поворот!
Все начинают думать о своих семьях, будь то их общины или буквальные семьи, и тоже вспоминают свои скелеты в шкафу. И вот уже все сопереживают Обаме и ситуации, в которую его поставили эти дурацкие вопросы.

Его magic touch напоминает мне Майкла Джордана в годы своего пика. Легко, едва касаясь земли, он взлетает выше всех и делает слэм данк ... на Хиллари.

[Murza& Varvara]

А какие связи у Макейна с Хагги? Макейн 20 лет ходил в его церковь? Я правда не знаю. Все, что смог найти - Хагги поддержал Маккейна, Маккейн осудил Хагги.
По-моему аналогия притянута за уши...

.

Макейн ходил в его церковь. Висказывание Хагее приводили не раз.Так что повторять не буду.

[Вертихвостка]

выше: .........

Maкс,
Теперь все понятно, спасибо.
А жена у него да... расистка еще та.

[SergeyVZ]

McCain "Proud" of Endorsement From John Hagee

Mr. McCain, who has been on a steady search for support among conservative and evangelical leaders who have long distrusted him, said he was "very honored'' by Mr. Hagee's endorsement:

"Well I think it's important to note that pastor John Hagee who has supported and endorsed my candidacy supports what I stand for and believe in.
And I am very proud of the Pastor John Hagee's spiritual leadership to thousands of people and I am proud of his commitment to the independence and the freedom of the state of Israel."

John Hagee's McCain Endorsement Sparks Uproar

Hagee на полном серьезе проповедует о грядущем армагеддоне (nuclear world war), который начнется нападением России в союзе с Ираном на Израиль:

Honest Questions with John Hagee
HAGEE: There is, in the book of Ezekiel, the 38th and 39th chapter, a description of a very graphic war that`s going to happen in the middle of the tribulation. It is a war that`s led by Russia. The Bible says that Russia will be a commander to the Islamic nations. The Islamic nations are mentioned, beginning in Ezekiel 38:5, by name, Persia, that`s Iran, and all of the nations that are coming with them. In this...

BECK: Putin, is he part of the biblical prophecy?

HAGEE: I believe that he`s the man that`s going to cause Russia to unite the Islamic nations against Israel.

Praying for Armageddon

And... that it's time for our country to consider a military pre-emptive strike against Iran if they will not yield to diplomacy," says Pastor John Hagee on the steps of the Capitol during a Christian Zionist summit in July 2007. Among some 4,500 listeners, there were prominent representatives of the U.S. ruling elite: on the Republican side, presidential candidate John McCain, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, and former Republican House majority leader Tom DeLay; among the Democrats, Senator Joseph Lieberman.

According to the pastor, the principal force of Evil will be Russia, a sponsor of Muslim terrorists and supplier of nuclear weapons to Iran. ("Russia is all over the Middle East in an antagonistic position against the United States... Iran's nuclear weapons have been produced with Russian scientists.")

John Hagee's books
John Hagee has a huge following, the ear of the White House

[koan]

Нашли таки соломинку. Пастор сказал бяку. Ужас, Да?

Пару дней назад церковь Обамы убрала со своего вебсайта основу секции "About Us", бывшую там в течение нескольких лет:

"We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System"

Из 12 принципов один касается религии и 6 - black community. Ничего не сказано о поддержке людей другого расового происхождения или о поддержке своей страны. Зато там же: "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. "

То есть на протяжении десятилетий Обама ходил в церковь которая открыто позиционировала себя как церковь только для своих и заботящаяся исключительно о людях своей расы. IMHO, это не христианство уже. Христианство изначально построено на идее, что "несть ни эллина, ни иудея".

Но это не главное. Главное то, что будучи членом этой церкви в течении десятилетий заявления об Обаме как некоем человеке превзошедшем расовые барьеры и категории звучит очень и очень неубедительно.

P.S. В качестве эксперимента, попробуйте в выделенных мною принципах заменить black на white. Нехорошо будет звучать, не правда ли?

[nipp]

Вторая поправка здесь тоже никого не волнует?

[Murza& Varvara]

Как агностик, скажу хрен с ним, с пастором. Дело в том, что МакКаин от этого лучше ну никак не выглядит. Ни с какой стороны.

+1. и с родственниками тоже. Кто бы стабилизировал доллар насущный.

[Истопник]

Вторая поправка здесь тоже никого не волнует?

А при чем здесь вторая поправка?

[nipp]

Вторая поправка здесь тоже никого не волнует?

А при чем здесь вторая поправка?

Обама = -2 поправка.

[SergeyVZ]

Asked about Mr. Hagee's extensive writings on Armageddon and about what one questioner said was Mr. Hagee's belief that the anti-Christ will be the head of the European Union, Mr. McCain responded that "all I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee's support.''

Catholic League president Bill Donohue said Hagee "has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it 'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system.'

John McCain defended Pastor Hagee's comments, saying he believe Hagee's claims that his statements were taken out of context: "I will say that he said that his words were taken out of context, he defends his position. I hope that maybe you'd give him a chance to respond. He says he has never been anti-Catholic, but I repudiate the words that create that impression."

[MaxSt]

Ничего не сказано о поддержке людей другого расового происхождения или о поддержке своей страны.

Еще скажите, что "we support our troops" там нету...

[Истопник]

Вторая поправка здесь тоже никого не волнует?

А при чем здесь вторая поправка?

Обама = -2 поправка.

Думаю, что волнует, но в отрицательном смысле...

[nipp]

Да, думаю что обсуждение второй поправки, хоть и является актуальной темой (особенно в свете того что оба кандидата от демократов - ярые прогибиционисты), но здесь это явно будет оффтопиком.

[super mario]

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System"

Scared the Shit Out Of Me!

[Иоп]

Хм... я раньше о политике (и политиках) в США был лучшего мнения. Однако, после Буша это все сильнее напоминает цирк. А как канадцы над американским электоратом издеваются!

[Ozzz]

Хм... я раньше о политике (и политиках) в США был лучшего мнения. Однако, после Буша это все сильнее напоминает цирк. А как канадцы над американским электоратом издеваются!

Как? Просто любопытно узнать основные характеристики по которым канадский электорат отличается от американского.

[super mario]

You know what Mr. Obama said. The Rev. Jeremiah Wright was wrong. His sermons were "incendiary," and they "denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation." Mr. Obama admitted that if all he knew of Mr. Wright were what he saw on the "endless loop . . . of YouTube," he wouldn't like him either. But he's known him 20 years as a man who taught him Christian faith, helped the poor, served as a Marine, and leads a community helping the homeless, needy and sick. "As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me." He would not renounce their friendship.

Most significantly, Mr. Obama asserted that race in America has become a generational story. The original sin of slavery is a fact, but the progress we have lived through the past 50 years means each generation experiences race differently. Older blacks, like Mr. Wright, remember Jim Crow and were left misshapen by it. Some rose anyway, some did not; of the latter, a "legacy of defeat" went on to misshape another generation. The result: destructive anger that is at times "exploited by politicians" and that can keep African-Americans "from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition." But "a similar anger exists within segments of the white community." He speaks of working- and middle-class whites whose "experience is the immigrant experience," who started with nothing. "As far as they're concerned, no one handed them anything, they've built it from scratch." "So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town," when they hear of someone receiving preferences they never received, and "when they're told their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced," they feel anger too.

This is all, simply, true. And we are not used to political figures being frank, in this way, in public. For this Mr. Obama deserves deep credit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1206047 ... lenews_wsj

[Netspirit]

Обама совершенно ясно сказал, почему он не "порвал" с пастором, не ушёл в другую церковь и не сделал бы других "политически-безопасных" поступков:

...

Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church? And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and You Tube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way.

But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than twenty years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth – by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.


...Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety – the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America – to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

[Истопник]

Обама совершенно ясно сказал, почему он не "порвал" с пастором, не ушёл в другую церковь и не сделал бы других "политически-безопасных" поступков:
.......

Помните пословицу и бочке меда и ложке дегтя?

[ksi]

Обама совершенно ясно сказал, почему он не "порвал" с пастором, не ушёл в другую церковь и не сделал бы других "политически-безопасных" поступков:
.......

Помните пословицу и бочке меда и ложке дегтя?

Вот речуга пастора через несколько дней после 9/11. Что в ней такого, что тянет на деготь?

“We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, Arikara, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism.

“We took Africans away from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism.

“We bombed Grenada and killed innocent civilians, babies, non-military personnel.

“We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenage and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard working fathers.

“We bombed Qaddafi’s home, and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against the rock.

“We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to pay back for the attack on our embassy, killed hundreds of hard working people, mothers and fathers who left home to go that day not knowing that they’d never get back home.

“We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.

“Kids playing in the playground. Mothers picking up children after school. Civilians, not soldiers, people just trying to make it day by day.

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff that we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.

“Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y’all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people we have wounded don’t have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that.”

[PartyGirl]

Я так и не услышала ни одного, кто бы сказал, что изменил свое отношение к Обаме. Таких нет? Сейчас опрос сварганю.

[ksi]

Я так и не услышала ни одного, кто бы сказал, что изменил свое отношение к Обаме. Таких нет? Сейчас опрос сварганю.

Просто на этом форуме в силу доминирующего профессионального состава очень мало дураков Кому-то нравятся демократы, кому-то республиканцы, кто-то выбирает из двух зол меньшее. Но только реально неумный человек, с совершенно промытыми мозгами может изменить свои взгляды из-за дешевой пропаганды а-ля этой истории с пастором.

[PartyGirl]

Но только реально неумный человек, с совершенно промытыми мозгами может изменить свои взгляды из-за дешевой пропаганды а-ля этой истории с пастором.

Спорное утверждение. На мой взгляд, "только реально неумный человек" сознательно игнорирует факты, которые потенциально могут повлиять на переоценку ситуации. Иными словами, если факты не подтверждают его теорию, то значит факты не стоят внимания.

[super mario]

Да, судя по всему Обама как кость в горле для определенной проослойки населения. Но, увы, альтернативы пока не видно.

[Истопник]

Обама совершенно ясно сказал, почему он не "порвал" с пастором, не ушёл в другую церковь и не сделал бы других "политически-безопасных" поступков:
.......

Помните пословицу и бочке меда и ложке дегтя?

Вот речуга пастора через несколько дней после 9/11. Что в ней такого, что тянет на деготь?

Ну, а как вам такое утверждение (я выбрал рубашку поближе к вашему телу):

Мы резали чеченцев в 19 веке,
Мы ссылали их пголовно в 20 веке.
Теперь они имеют право резать русских, брать заложников и пр. Мы их понимаем. Это иллюстрация к части, которая хоть как-то связана с 9/11 в его речи.


А деготь в том, что события 9/11 не имеют никакого отношения к индейцам, африканцам, Гренаде, Панаме, Японии, ЮАР и пр.
Цель речи не обьяснить причины, а вылить побольше желчи на ненавидимую Америку и белых. Расизм.