Скромное обаяние Косовской государственности

[klsk]

Вам точка зрения газеты "Известия" кажется более правдивой?

Известия приводят слова самой Карлы. Она что же, сама себе врет?

Известия не дают прямые цитаты Карлы, они интерпретируют ее слова. Очень вольно интерпретируют, на мой взгляд, мошенничают. Вы почитайте статью, ссылку на которую я выше поместил. В ней, в отличие от Известий, довольно серьезный анализ приведен.

[Vobel]

Вам точка зрения газеты "Известия" кажется более правдивой?

Известия приводят слова самой Карлы. Она что же, сама себе врет?

Известия просто придумали всё от начала и до конца.

Про то, что Вы отличаетесь очень нестандартным мЫшлением, было ясно с самого первого Вашего поста. Не надо продолжать это демонстрировать, это и так всем ясно

Идите... кроликами на бекярде командовать.

[ZSM-5]

Известия не дают прямые цитаты Карлы, они интерпретируют ее слова. Очень вольно интерпретируют, на мой взгляд, мошенничают. Вы почитайте статью, ссылку на которую я выше поместил. В ней, в отличие от Известий, довольно серьезный анализ приведен.

Известия тут ни при чем. Не нравятся Известия, читайте Коммерсант. Разговор идет об одном и том же.

В Сербии начато расследование дела о похищении летом 1999 года около 300 косовских сербов и транспортировке их в Албанию для подпольной торговли человеческими органами. Поводом стала вышедшая на днях книга экс-прокурора Гаагского трибунала Карлы дель Понте. Если приведенные в ней данные подтвердятся, разразится громкий международный скандал.

http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=872229&print=true

[klsk]

ZSM-5, вы статью прочитали, на которую я ссылку дал? Если да, какое у вас по поводу нее мнение?

[mr. Hide]

Известия были далеко не первыми...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ca ... gle+Search

[ZSM-5]

Известия были далеко не первыми...

Так ясно же, что в случае появления "неудобных фактов" первое, что слышишь из стана демократов - это обвинения российских СМИ во лжи

Интересно, что сейчас будут говорить?

[ZSM-5]

ZSM-5, вы статью прочитали, на которую я ссылку дал? Если да, какое у вас по поводу нее мнение?

Тормозной сайт. 5 минут прождал, и все попусту. А что там? Скопируйте, пожалуйста, если у Вас получается туда зайти.

[Igor'1968]

Известия были далеко не первыми...

Так ясно же, что в случае появления "неудобных фактов" первое, что слышишь из стана демократов - это обвинения российских СМИ во лжи

Интересно, что сейчас будут говорить?

При обнаружении "неудобных фактов" истинный демократ должен с гордо поднятой головой пройти мимо...

[ZSM-5]

При обнаружении "неудобных фактов" истинный демократ должен с гордо поднятой головой пройти мимо...

А, ну да... А сегодня так вообще удобно - конец квартала, очень правдоподобно ссылаться на занятость.....

[Igor'1968]

При обнаружении "неудобных фактов" истинный демократ должен с гордо поднятой головой пройти мимо...

А, ну да... А сегодня так вообще удобно - конец квартала, очень правдоподобно ссылаться на занятость.....

Внутренне оправдав и факт сей прискорбный, и себя прогрессивного...

[klsk]

Известия были далеко не первыми...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ca ... gle+Search

Разница между тем, как это описано, скажем, в IHT и Известиях - огромная, на мой взгляд.

А первоисточником, по всей видимости, была эта публикация:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-arti ... v_id=48671

"KLA sold Kosovo Serb organs in Albania"
21 March 2008 | 14:11 -> 19:23 | Source: B92, Beta
BELGRADE -- The prosecutor is to look into the sale of organs of Kosovo Serbs who vanished during and after the 1999 bombing.

“We are checking some informal statements we obtained through operative work that, in 1999, two trucks carrying imprisoned Kosovo Serbs were sent to Albania,” said War Crimes Prosecutor Vladimir Vukčević.

He said that the informal information had been obtained from Hague Tribunal investigators.

According to those sources, there are unregistered mass graves with bodies of murdered Serbs in Albania.

In her book, “The Hunt”, to be published in Italy on April 3, the former Hague Tribunal Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte states that, during investigations into war crimes committed by the Kosovo Liberation Army, KLA, against Serbs and other non-Albanians, the prosecutor’s office was informed that persons who disappeared during the Kosovo conflict were used in organ smuggling operations.

The office obtained information that UNMIK investigators and officials had received from groups of so-called reliable journalists, according to whom, Kosovo Albanians had transferred 300 Serb and other non-Albanian hostages in trucks to northern Albania in the summer of 1999.

Those prisoners were first imprisoned in camps in places like Kukes and Tropoje.

According to journalist sources, the younger and fitter prisoners were examined by doctors, got food and were not beaten. After that, they were kept in custody in other centers in Burel and the surrounding area.

One group was held in barracks behind a yellow house some twenty kilometers to the south of that town, states the former prosecutor.

One room in that yellow house, according to the journalists, served as an operation room where doctors extracted prisoners’ organs.

Afterwards, the organs, according to the sources, were sent abroad from Rinas airport near Tirana where they were used in transplantations for patients who had paid for it.

Daily Večerenje Novosti brings more details from the book, which says that the Hague and UNMIK investigators, and several journalist, along with an Albanian prosecutor, made a trip to the yellow house in 2003.

"It was now white," Del Ponte writes. "Despite the fact that investigators discovered traces of yellow paint on it, the owner denied it was ever repainted."

In its vicinity, investigators also found pieces of gauze, used syringes, two plastic IV solution bags, "petrified in mud", empty medicine bottles, including muscle relaxants used during surgeries.

Inside the house itself, forensics discovered traces of blood on the walls and on the floor in one of the rooms. A section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters, was clean.

"The owner of the house offered a series of explanations to the investigators when it came to the origin of the blood traces. First, he said that his wife gave birth in that room many years ago. But when the wife made her statement and said that all their children were born elsewhere, he claimed that his family used the room to slaughter animals in order to celebrate a Muslim holiday," Del Ponte writes.

As for the Albanian prosecutor who accompanied them, the former chief Hague prosecutor says he at one point bragged he had cousins who were KLA members.

"There are no graves of Serbs here," the Albanian official said. "But, if they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did the right thing".

Describing detailed information she has on the matter, Del Ponte writes that detectives had had to give up on this case because further investigation had proved "impossible".

[Counter]

Афганские наркотики везлись и российскими военными....

Мyсье не просто стрелочник, а магистр! Или даже с PhD degree

Любезнейший, так, это правда или нет? "командующий миротворцами случайно в Москве упал с балкона"
Бо все остальное - РБК (и ваш) словесный понос

[klsk]

ZSM-5, вы статью прочитали, на которую я ссылку дал? Если да, какое у вас по поводу нее мнение?

Тормозной сайт. 5 минут прождал, и все попусту. А что там? Скопируйте, пожалуйста, если у Вас получается туда зайти.

An unpleasant anecdote from 1999
by Douglas Muir

Via the invaluable B92 website comes a nasty little story from Albania.

In her book, “The Hunt”, to be published in Italy on April 3, the former Hague Tribunal Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte states that, during investigations into war crimes committed by the Kosovo Liberation Army, KLA, against Serbs and other non-Albanians, the prosecutor’s office was informed that persons who disappeared during the Kosovo conflict were used in organ smuggling operations.
Yah, that’s right. Organ smuggling.

More below the cut.

First thing is, understand that this is all hearsay. There’s no evidence; it’s del Ponte’s recollection of what people told her some years back, plus what her investigators found when she looked into it.

That said, here’s the story:

The office obtained information that UNMIK investigators and officials had received from groups of so-called reliable journalists, according to whom, Kosovo Albanians had transferred 300 Serb and other non-Albanian hostages in trucks to northern Albania in the summer of 1999.

Those prisoners were first imprisoned in camps in places like Kukes and Tropoje.

According to journalist sources, the younger and fitter prisoners were examined by doctors, got food and were not beaten. After that, they were kept in custody in other centers in Burel and the surrounding area.

One group was held in barracks behind a yellow house some twenty kilometers to the south of that town, states the former prosecutor.

One room in that yellow house, according to the journalists, served as an operation room where doctors extracted prisoners’ organs.

Afterwards, the organs, according to the sources, were sent abroad from Rinas airport near Tirana where they were used in transplantations for patients who had paid for it.

Daily Večerenje Novosti brings more details from the book, which says that the Hague and UNMIK investigators, and several journalist, along with an Albanian prosecutor, made a trip to the yellow house in 2003.

“It was now white,” Del Ponte writes. “Despite the fact that investigators discovered traces of yellow paint on it, the owner denied it was ever repainted.”

In its vicinity, investigators also found pieces of gauze, used syringes, two plastic IV solution bags, “petrified in mud”, empty medicine bottles, including muscle relaxants used during surgeries.

Inside the house itself, forensics discovered traces of blood on the walls and on the floor in one of the rooms. A section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters, was clean.

“The owner of the house offered a series of explanations to the investigators when it came to the origin of the blood traces. First, he said that his wife gave birth in that room many years ago. But when the wife made her statement and said that all their children were born elsewhere, he claimed that his family used the room to slaughter animals in order to celebrate a Muslim holiday,” Del Ponte writes.

As for the Albanian prosecutor who accompanied them, the former chief Hague prosecutor says he at one point bragged he had cousins who were KLA members.

“There are no graves of Serbs here,” the Albanian official said. “But, if they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did the right thing”.

Describing detailed information she has on the matter, Del Ponte writes that detectives had had to give up on this case because further investigation had proved “impossible”.

If you check out the story at B92, you’ll find a 100+ comment thread with Serbs and Albanians screaming at each other. (I wonder if there’s a forum where Serbs and Albanians go for friendly, low-key chat with each other. I haven’t seen it.)

The Serbs have bought this story wholesale. No surprise; it punches about six different buttons all at once. (Serbs as victims; Serbs in mass graves; Albanians as monsters; Albanians involved with smuggling; Albanians involved in stuff that’s creepy and bizarre; Albania as a nightmare land where horrors happen; the KLA as organized crime. I’ve probably missed a couple.) Not just the Serbs on B92, either — this was front page news in the Belgrade dailies. A lot of people in Serbia really want to believe this story.

Okay, then. How believable is it?

Not very.

One, “300 Serbs” is more than half of all the Serbs unaccounted for from all of Kosovo. Depending on who you talk to, the number of Serbs who went missing in 1999 is between 200 and 400. So, for this story to be true, you’d have to figure most or all the missing the Serbs ended up in this one place.

Two, you’d also have to figure that the Albanians managed to keep this a deep secret ever after. This seems unlikely. The Serbs killed hundreds of Albanians in 1998-9 and then went to great lengths to dispose of the bodies — dumping them into the Danube in freezer trucks, tipping them into industrial incinerators. Nevertheless, despite the best efforts of the Milosevic government (and the sullen disinterest of certain governments since), the story came out. To believe this happened — hundreds of Serbs brought into Albania and kept in multiple camps, some or all of them dissected, and then all killed without a single survivor telling the tale — happened and then was kept secret ever since, you’d have to believe the Albanians are more competent and organized than the Serbs. I mean no disrespect to the Albanians when I say this seems unlikely.

Three, Albania seems to be missing a mass grave. Disposing of 300 bodies — about 15 tons of human remains — is no small thing. (As the Serbs and others discovered in the 1990s.)

Four, the story pretty much requires the Albanian government to be complicit. This is unlikely.

Successive Albanian governments had a complicated, love-hate relationship with the Kosovo Liberation Army. They wanted Kosovo out from under Belgrade, but they didn’t want a major war with hundreds of thousands of refugees (a reasonable fear, since that’s exactly what they ended up getting) and they didn’t want a lot of heavily armed guerrillas running around Albania getting up to God knows what. The Berisha administration kept the KLA on a very short leash in Albania, including throwing a number of its leaders in jail for up to a couple of months at a time — just to get the point across. Things loosened up somewhat after Berisha was forced out of office in 1997, but no Albanian government was going to let the KLA run a concentration camp on their turf.

Five, organ-legging is… well, let’s say it’s also pretty unlikely. Albania has a pretty primitive medical infrastructure even today. In 1999 it was much worse. Now, in theory you wouldn’t need much to get organs out of someone: a good doctor, a couple of assistants, and some basic equipment would do it. The problem is, once you have the organs out the clock starts ticking. Some bits keep better than others — corneas can last for days — but for kidneys, lungs or a heart you’re talking less than 24 hours, even with freezing and preservatives, before it’s just so much bad meat. This is why organlegging isn’t a major threat around the world. Good fresh organs are worth a lot, and there are probably plenty of evil people who’d be willing to kidnap folks and cut them up. But it’s that last leg that’s the kicker.

In developed countries, there’s a whole infrastructure for moving fresh organs around fast fast fast. In Albania… umm.

I note in passing that Burel — where this supposedly happened — is the middle of nowhere, a couple of hours up a bad mountain road. (Not that Albania has a lot of good mountain roads, but you get the idea.)

Okay, so the story is pretty unlikely. But on the other hand, del Ponte’s people did find… something. A house that had been repainted; a homeowner engaged in obvious lies; blood traces and medical supplies. (N.B., while I disagree sharply with Carla del Ponte about a lot of things, and have a low opinion of her judgment generally, I don’t think she lies much. So I’m willing to believe that the facts were as she describes them.) So what was going on there?

I don’t know, and I doubt we ever will. But I can make a couple of guesses.

One, it was a KLA field hospital. Burel isn’t far from the border. The KLA was in Albania in force around this time; the closest thing to a pitched battle that they fought was along the Albanian border, against JNA, the Serb/Yugoslav army. Wounded KLA guerrillas were carried (literally) back up the mountains and over the border. If the yellow house was being used to treat KLA fighters, that would explain the blood, the medical supplies, and possibly the owner’s reticence as well.

That’s the most benign explanation. A less pleasant one is that it was a KLA torture center, where Serbs (and possibly some troublesome Kosovar Albanians — the KLA liquidated a number of “collaborators”) were taken to be dealt with. I think this is less likely, but only because it’s hard to see why they’d drag people over the mountains into Albania — there was a war on, and they were perfectly capable of doing torture and interrogation fast and in the field. But I think it’s a possibility. Long time readers of this blog know I support Kosovar independence, but that doesn’t mean I think the KLA were a bunch of Boy Scouts.

The long and the short of it is, we’ll probably never know. We can say with pretty high confidence that the story of “300 Serbs” being held “so that their organs could be sold” is probably bullshit, but that doesn’t mean we’ll ever know the truth.

And in a way it doesn’t matter. The story has already entered Serbia’s mass consciousness; a large minority of Serbs have completely accepted it, and many more are at least affected by it. (Well, surely something horrible happened there…) The already poisonous atmosphere has become some small bit more envenomed.

One interesting loose end is what Carla del Ponte thought she was doing by telling this story. But, as noted, I have a pretty low opinion of her judgment. So I’m not really inclined to guess.

Okay, I think I need to post something about the Balkans that’s upbeat and cheerful now. Hmm.

This entry was posted on Monday, March 24th, 2008 at 11:28 pm and is filed under A Fistful Of Euros, Terrorism, Transition and accession, Vampires. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

[mr. Hide]

Разница между тем, как это описано, скажем, в IHT и Известиях - огромная, на мой взгляд.

А первоисточником, по всей видимости, была эта публикация:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-arti ... v_id=48671

Никакой видимости, что эта публикация была первоисточником. До Известий успели обсосать эту новость от Австралии до Норвегии. Первоисточником правильно будет считать книгу Карлы Дель Понте.

[ZSM-5]

А первоисточником, по всей видимости, была эта публикация:

Да все будет нормально, не волнуйтесь.... Демократическая общественность докажет как дважды два, что убивали не сербов, а коров. Да, собственно, Сербы другого и не заслуживают, не правда ли?

"There are no graves of Serbs here," the Albanian official said. "But, if they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did the right thing".

Один вопрос вот только мучит: вот как честному человеку (ну как я, например), жить в этом мире? Может, и правда - в Гималаи, где никого из этих человекообразных нет?

[klsk]

Никакой видимости, что эта публикация была первоисточником. До Известий успели обсосать эту новость от Австралии до Норвегии. Первоисточником правильно будет считать книгу Карлы Дель Понте.

Книга Карлы еще не вышла. Так что сведения о том, что в этой книге написано, и можно, видимо, считать первоисточником данной новости.

И я не утверждал, что Известия - первоисточник.

[klsk]

А первоисточником, по всей видимости, была эта публикация:

Да все будет нормально, не волнуйтесь.... Демократическая общественность докажет как дважды два, что убивали не сербов, а коров. Да, собственно, Сербы другого и не заслуживают, не правда ли?

"There are no graves of Serbs here," the Albanian official said. "But, if they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did the right thing".

Один вопрос вот только мучит: вот как честному человеку (ну как я, например), жить в этом мире? Может, и правда - в Гималаи, где никого из этих человекообразных нет?

А что про аргументы автора думаете? Например, про то, что, с его точки зрения, просто невозможно было организовать торговлю органами в такой дыре.

По-моему, серьезный аргумент.

[mr. Hide]

И я не утверждал, что Известия - первоисточник.

Я сказал, что по тому адресу, с которого такую длинную цитату дали - навряд ли источник.

[klsk]

И я не утверждал, что Известия - первоисточник.

Я сказал, что по тому адресу, с которого такую длинную цитату дали - навряд ли источник.

Может быть, вы и правы, может, что-то другое раньше вышло.

Я прошелся по первым двум страничкам гугловских ссылок, приведенных вами - вроде как все они ссылаются именно на В92.

[mr. Hide]

Я прошелся по первым двум страничкам гугловских ссылок, приведенных вами - вроде как все они ссылаются именно на В92.

Почему же? http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8869/
24 марта.

[ZSM-5]

А что про аргументы автора думаете? Например, про то, что, с его точки зрения, просто невозможно было организовать торговлю органами в такой дыре.

По-моему, серьезный аргумент.

Мне не понравился тон автора публикации, на которую Ву ссылаетесь. Вот все эти "okay", "hmm", "pretty". Это расчитано на очень невзыскательную публику. Часть аргументов вообще напоминает небезысвестные "доказательства Бога бытия"
По существу мне сказать нечего. Копать надо (и в буквальном, и в переносном смысле - и землю, и документы). Только тогда может быть что-то выяснится, но только при наличии доброй воли со стороны приштинского руководства, а на это, естественно, рассчитывать не приходится.

[klsk]

Я прошелся по первым двум страничкам гугловских ссылок, приведенных вами - вроде как все они ссылаются именно на В92.

Почему же? http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8869/
24 марта.

Да, этот не ссылается на В92 (который 21 марта опубликовал статью). Но он появился позже, и во многом повторяет данные В92.

[ZSM-5]

Кстати, мне очень не понравилось вот это:

Okay, then. How believable is it?

Not very.

Автор отвечает на свой же вопрос, и только потом дает какую-то аргументацию. Нельзя так делать. Сначала приводятся аргументы, и только потом делается вывод.

[ZSM-5]

А что про аргументы автора думаете? Например, про то, что, с его точки зрения, просто невозможно было организовать торговлю органами в такой дыре.

По-моему, серьезный аргумент.

У KLA или у албанской армии были вертолеты? Если да, то проблема транспортировки легко решается.

[klsk]

Мне не понравился тон автора публикации, на которую Ву ссылаетесь. Вот все эти "okay", "hmm", "pretty". Это расчитано на очень невзыскательную публику. Часть аргументов вообще напоминает небезысвестные "доказательства Бога бытия"
По существу мне сказать нечего. Копать надо (и в буквальном, и в переносном смысле - и землю, и документы). Только тогда может быть что-то выяснится, но только при наличии доброй воли со стороны приштинского руководства, а на это, естественно, рассчитывать не приходится.

Я тоже обратил внимание на тон автора, явно предвзятый. Но аргументы, тем не менее, у него серьезные. Мне кажется, что версия с похищеним людей для использования их органов мало реальна. Потому как не только нужно органы эти в целости и сохранности довезти до заказчика, но и трансплантировать их. И делать это должны в серьезных госпиталях.

Осуществить это, да еще и так, чтобы оставалось тайной...