Я открыл новую тему о конфликте на Ближнем Востоке с целью, всё-таки, попробовать разобраться в причинах ненависти между двумя народами.
Старую тему считаю закрытой, так-как в ней началось типичное поливание грязи, эмоции и, что печально, желание некоторых участников спровоцировать конфликт, с целью закрытия темы.
Поэтому я решил попробовать ещё раз проанализировать ситуацию на Ближнем Востоке. Попробовать найти причины, если не всей войны, то последней интифады.
Возможно так же найти выход из сложившийся ситуации.
Обострение конфликта, на мой взгляд, началось с лета 1967 года, когда в ходе, так называемой шестидневной войны, Израиль защищаясь от Арабских стран, одержал победу и захватил палестинские территории. К примеру - Иерусалим.
Вместо того, что бы наказать виновных и попробовать инсталировать на оккупированной территории демократические структуры, Израиль устанавливает политику, которая похоже на отношение ссср к странам Восточной Европы.
Со временем, Израиль начинает расширать свои территории за счёт Поселений - посёлков с националистически настроенными израильтянами и с хорошо вооружённой охраной.
Мне кажется, вот тут и "зарыта собака". Увеличение числа "посёлков" дейсвовало и действует на палестинцев угнетающе - они чувствуют, что у них, медленно, но верно, отобирают их землю захватчики.
Кстати, о этой же проблеме, говорят и многочисленные резолюции ООН, которые Израиль постоянно игнорировал.
Вот одна из них:
http://www.un.org/russian/documen/gadoc ... r56-61.pdf
Где ясно написанно:
"...что, политика Израиля, связанная с поселениями, оказывает пагубное воздействие на мирный процесс..."
"..(ООН) призывает Израиль признать Женевскую конвенцию от 1949 года к оккупированной палестинской территории и неукоснительно выполнять положения Конвенции, особенно параграф..."
"...требует полного прекращения строительства поселений на территории..."
И так далее и тому подобное. Кстати, эта резолюция (56/61) принятая 14 Феб. 2002, так же игнорируется Израилем, как и предыдущии.
У кого, какие мнения по этому поводу? Критика?
Ближний Восток
-
CBETA*
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 3417
- Joined: 23 May 2001 09:01
- Location: Laguna Beach , CA
ssilka po teme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm
-
ami
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: 15 Feb 2000 10:01
- Location: Novosibirsk->Pasadena, CA
Re: Ближний Восток
Зря Вы, не место это что бы "[i:d516e1a950]найти причины ... выход из сложившийся ситуации[/i:d516e1a950]". Сейчас на Вас налетят ястребы, ястребки и вОроны, потребуют прекрарить "лезть не в свое дело" (см. location под вашим ником), а самым весомым аргументом будет - игнорирует резолюции - "потому что мог/может".
почему-то [i:d516e1a950]некоторые[/i:d516e1a950] любую тему о Ближнем Востоке воспринимают как личное смертельное оскорбление и начинают виндетту..
почему-то [i:d516e1a950]некоторые[/i:d516e1a950] любую тему о Ближнем Востоке воспринимают как личное смертельное оскорбление и начинают виндетту..
-
Azazello
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 3179
- Joined: 12 Jun 2001 09:01
- Location: SPb,Russia->Rehovot, Israel->Cambridge, MA
If I only could only send one email for the rest of my life on the
>subject of the Middle East, it would be this one.
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> Speaking Truth to the Powerless:
> An Open Letter To The People Commonly Called "Palestinians"
>
>This letter is an outstanding piece of writing from a man in New
>Zealand who claims to be an agnostic. I could only hope that every
Jew,
>Christian Muslim (and agnostic) throughout the world understood the
>issues as well as he does!
>
>
>PLEASE - read it - print it out - keep it for future reference -
>forward it to everyone you know!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> An Open Letter to the Palestinians from an Agnostic
>
>Date: Sun, 26 May 2002
>
>Speaking Truth to the Powerless:
>An Open Letter To The People Commonly Called "Palestinians".
>
>
>Greetings to any Palestinian who may be reading this. My name is
David
>White. I am a citizen of New Zealand, a small, Western, nominally
>Christian country in the South Pacific Ocean. I am not Jewish, or
>Christian, I guess I'm vaguely agnostic.
>
>
>Writing this letter is a good way for me to discuss the horrible mess
>in the Middle East, spell out as many relevant points as possible
>concerning the state of the Palestinian people, and to see what can be
>made of them I don't speak Arabic, so I can only communicate with
>English-speaking Palestinians. There aren't many here in NZ, though,
>and I haven't yet met any. I don't know how many will ever see these
>words, but, here's hoping someone does.
>
>
>I have a post-graduate university education, and I suppose I could be
>called an intellectual. Unfortunately, many such people have supported
>abhorrent ideologies such as Nazism, and continue to support
Communism,
>so I refuse to describe myself in this way. I don't want to considered
>as just another "trendy leftie" academic, as we would say in NZ. So,
>unlike many university-educated types, I am anti-totalitarian,
>pro-peace up to a point, pro-democracy, pro-capitalism (except the
>capitalists running Enron), and skeptical about the "cult of
>victimhood." I'm quite safe here in New Zealand, and no-one I know has
>been killed by a Palestinian.
>
>
>My perspective of Palestinians is something like this - you're Arabs
>(of course), mostly Muslim, but with a Christian minority. Many of you
>live outside Gaza/West Bank, mostly in Jordan and other Muslim
>countries, with some groups living in Western countries as well. You
>feel that you have been wronged by Israel and are fighting to destroy
>them.
>
>
>As for my perspective on Israel, I see them like this. They are a
>mainly Jewish, small, free-market democracy with a large Arab minority
>surrounded by hostile Arab dictatorships. They have an ancestral claim
>to Israel, their state was created as a refuge from persecution, they
>have a right to exist, and, having survived a holocaust in Europe,
they
>should not have to sit still and wait for another one in the Middle
>East.
>
>
>A Down Under Overview.
>
>Over the last few months, the conflict in the disputed territories of
>Gaza and the West Bank has turned into a war between the Palestinian
>people and Israel. (I will not apologize for using the term
"disputed",
>as I believe it reflects a rather complicated situation more
accurately
>than "occupied").
>
>
>Your interpretation, as far as I can tell, seems to be something like
>this: You have no state of your own, and you are fighting a war
against
>those you call "Zionist oppressors" and "colonial imperialists", in
>order to create a Palestinian state.
>
>Accusations of massacre and human rights violations by the Israeli
Army
>are being tossed around like confetti. Your leader, Yasser Arafat,
vows
>to "martyr" himself rather than "surrender", and that bungling and
>incompetent organization, the United Nations (again, no apologies for
>venting personal opinions), is trying to do what it is
constitutionally
>incapable of doing, i.e. "saving future generations from the scourge
of
>war".
>
>
>The Israelis see things differently, of course. For them, it's a
simple
>battle for survival. They offered you a state, and you attacked them
>instead. They have occupied Palestinian towns, have fought it out with
>various armed groups, and desperate attempts are being made by the US,
>other Arab countries and the UN to break the so-called "cycle of
>violence". As a result, the Palestinian situation at the moment
>generally, can be explained by putting it into New Zealand idiom.
>
>
>Put bluntly, the Palestinian people are buggered. Munted. Stuffed.
>Rooted. (American equivalent=screwed. British equivalent: done over).
>It's like this: Yasser Arafat turned down the Israeli offer of a
>Palestinian homeland in Gaza and the West Bank. You want, or Arafat
>claims that you want, a Palestine "from the river to the sea;" in
other
>words, "all or nothing".
>
>
>There is one insuperable obstacle to this- Israel. No matter how
>eloquent your arguments or numerous your martyrs, no matter how many
>European diplomats are angered by, or UN resolutions are passed
>against, Israel, the Israelis are not going to pack up and leave. The
>only way you will get the Palestinian state you want is to destroy
>Israel.
>
>
>This is what you have been trying to do since 1948, and the current
>"intifada" launched in 2000 is your latest effort. However, the
>Israelis are not standing there and letting you kill them. They are
>fighting back, and if they have to choose between their own survival
>and yours, guess which choice they'll make.
>
>
>A Vast Wringing Of Hands, A Great Fluttering Of Diplomats.
>
>That has been the overall response to the disaster you have created
for
>yourselves. You, the Palestinian Arabs, are obviously hoping for some
>kind of international intervention to save you. As we in New Zealand
>would say, "Get Real!".
>
>
>The European Union and the UN have demonstrated on numerous occasions
>in the past their incompetence and total incapacity to take any sort
of
>firm action without American leadership. Ask your Muslim brothers of
>Bosnia-Herzegovina, about how effective the EU and the UN were in
>protecting them without American intervention. In spite of the
>impression that American diplomatic efforts have created, the US will
>not take sides against Israel, and will eventually abandon its futile
>attempts at evenhandedness. If they do join forces militarily with
>Israel in their war against terrorism, your fighters will be snuffed
>out like candle flames.
>
>
>As for your "beloved Arab brothers" in the Middle East, they make a
>great deal of noise about your "liberation struggle", and have sent
>money and arms, but have not sent a single tank to save you. Their
>diplomatic proposals are ones that could have been offered at any
time,
>and are aimed at benefiting them, not Palestinians. The Egyptians
>themselves will not declare war on Israel unless they receive $100
>billion to cover their costs.
>
>
>Do you really believe that the rest of your Arab Muslim brothers think
>you are worth that much? Do you really believe they will put your
>interests ahead of their own? Although your friends and Arabs in
Europe
>are passing sanctions and burning synagogues in your support, not a
>single EU warship has sailed to your aid, and not a single NATO
>aircraft has dropped a single bomb on your "Zionist oppressors".
>
>
>I have noted that large numbers of people, including university
>educated intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled
>by this. No matter how many western intellectuals, news media and
>international organizations may support the Palestinian struggle, none
>of this matters because America stands by Israel.
>
>
>The Unbearable Burden of Life
>
>How did you get into such a mess? As you yourselves would say and have
>indeed said on many occasions, it isn't your fault. It's always the
>"Great Satan" America, and it's "Lesser Satan", Israel, that you blame
>for all your woes. Everything that you do, such as your "martyrdom
>operations", are described as the products of your "rage" at being
>"dispossessed of your land", and of your "helplessness" in the face of
>"Zionist" might.
>
>
>There are only 300 million Arabs against over 5 million Jews! How
>unfair! How unjust, that so many can do so little against so few!
>
>
>A number of Western commentators have put Arab failures down to
>numerous cultural factors, not the least being Islam. Your religious
>beliefs in martyrdom and jihad, coupled with a total inability to
>accept any blame for your own predicament, have combined to do you
>great and lasting damage.
>
>
>Look closely at why Western countries such as Israel have succeeded,
>and Muslim countries have not. Western countries are free-market
>democracies. Muslim countries (other than Turkey) aren't. Surely that
>should tell you something.
>
>
>Why I Stand With Israel
>
>As I said, I do not, and I will not, support the Palestinian cause.
Why
>not? I have a number of reasons, and here they are:
>
>
>1.) You have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that you intend
>to destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population. This is
>genocide, pure and simple. You justify this by saying that Israel has
>committed many crimes against your people, and that you seek
"justice".
>I say this in response - NOTHING WHATSOEVER is an acceptable
>justification for genocide. Loss of land, humiliation at being
>militarily defeated ? others have suffered these and moved on to
create
>new nations and opportunities for themselves.
>
>
>Examples abound- the Germans thrown out of East Prussia in Europe,
>1945, the Nationalist Chinese who fled to Taiwan in 1949, to name but
>two. Germans and Taiwanese have coped with military defeat and the
loss
>of land. They haven't warred with their neighbors, nor have they
>launched terrorist attacks upon them. Both countries have more wealth
>than any Arab nation. Why can't Palestinians cope? Are Germans and
>Chinese better able to deal with adversity than Arabs?
>
>
>2.) You have accused the Israelis of "genocide" against you. Here's a
>question for you: Israel has atomic bombs and powerful military
forces.
>If they really, truly wanted you all dead, they could easily do it.
Why
>haven't they? If the Israelis went all-out, you would be, as we say in
>New Zealand, "dog tucker". Why did they spend so much time negotiating
>with your leaders? Because Israel wants peace and secure borders. You
>refuse to give them even that. You plan genocide and accuse Israel of
>the same crime. Prove it!
>
>
>3.) The use of terrorism. Killing people for being Jewish is
>despicable. Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are also
>despicable. (At this point, I'd like to pause and get a question of
>nomenclature cleared up, regarding those Palestinians who kill
>themselves and others with explosives strapped to their bodies. You
>call them "martyrs". Western media sources and academics debate the
>precise term to use in describing them. Others, including the
Israelis,
>call them terrorists.
>
>
>I have a better, more appropriate term. I prefer to use the word
>"kamikazes". The original kamikazes appeared in 1944, in the war in
the
>Pacific. They were Japanese Navy and Army pilots, organized into
>"Special Attack Units" with orders to crash their planes into American
>warships, in the hope of destroying them - "one plane, one ship".
Their
>initial impact was similar to that of the Al-Quaeda attacks on New
York
>and the
>Pentagon- shock and horror. (I noted that many Palestinians appeared
on
>Western TV celebrating the September attacks). Note: The American
>response, in both cases was not the one
>hoped for.
>
>
>Once the shock had worn off, the US set out to destroy the kamikazes,
>and terrible destruction was rained down on Japan, ending only with 2
>atomic bombs. You know what is happening right now in Afghanistan to
>the Al-Quaeda group).
>
>
>4.) Using children as suicide bombers. Anyone who teaches children to
>kill themselves in suicide attacks is not worth supporting under any
>circumstances. For you to do this to your children is an abomination.
A
>commentator on a Web magazine said that if the Palestinians laid down
>their arms, they would get peace and land. If the Israelis laid down
>their arms, they would be killed. You know that is true, even if most
>of Europe doesn't. Your cause is evil, because it seeks destruction at
>any price. Genocide is not justice. Sacrificing your own children for
>the sake of your leader's personal ambitions is wicked.
>
>
>That's why I cannot support you. That's why I stand with Israel.
>
>
>Palestinian Past or Future?
>
>The Second World War in Europe ended with Hitler's suicide. He was
>replaced by Admiral Doenitz who quickly made peace with the Allies.
>Japan's leader, Emperor Hirohito, decided on surrender rather than see
>his nation destroyed.
>
>
>If Arafat chooses surrender, though, will the rest of the Palestinians
>go along with it? If he dies, will the war end? If the answer to both
>of these questions is No, then the Palestinian people are doomed. Do
>you really prefer death as a people?
>
>Do you fully comprehend what you are doing? If you are indeed aware
>that the path you have embarked on leads to destruction, and if you
>have freely chosen to walk in that direction, then as a people you are
>truly beyond hope.
>
>
>Are Palestinians really going to be a "Kamikaze Nation"? Are you
really
>going to give Israel no other option except your destruction? If they
>must choose, then as Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld said,
"better
>a terrible end than terror without end".
>
>
>Do not think that kamikaze tactics can get you what you want. The
>Israelis can tell you all about Masada, if you ask them. Remember what
>happened to the Japanese at places like Okinawa and Iwo Jima.
>Palestinians deserve better than the current mess you are in now - but
>before you can be given anything, you must offer a sincere peace, you
>must stop teaching your children to hate, you must stop believing that
>"victimhood" justifies everything and - above all other things - GIVE
>UP ISRAEL! Accept that you will never go there again except perhaps as
>workers or tourists. Accept that Jews are human beings. Accept the
>verdict of 1948 and learn to live with it.
>
>
>Invest in banks, not bombs. Build computer chips, not Kalashnikovs.
>Teach science and mathematics, not hate. Look to the future, not the
>past. Stop blaming Americans and Jews for all your problems, and take
>responsibility for your own actions. Read those parts in the Quran
>about living with the "peoples of the Book".
>
>
>Golda Meir, the former Israeli Prime minister, is quoted as saying "
>there will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their
>children more than they hate Israel ". Every time I see pictures of
>Palestinian children waving guns and wearing dummy explosives, then I
>can only say she is right. The alternative to peace is not victory but
>death.
>
>
>Think about it - before it's too late.
>
>
> From an Infidel to Those Who Submit, and are living in the Holy Land
-
>
>May God grant you steadfastness in the face of things that cannot be
>changed, the capacity to cope with those that can be changed, and the
>wisdom and the ability to tell the difference.
>
>
>David White
>Auckland, New Zealand
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>subject of the Middle East, it would be this one.
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> Speaking Truth to the Powerless:
> An Open Letter To The People Commonly Called "Palestinians"
>
>This letter is an outstanding piece of writing from a man in New
>Zealand who claims to be an agnostic. I could only hope that every
Jew,
>Christian Muslim (and agnostic) throughout the world understood the
>issues as well as he does!
>
>
>PLEASE - read it - print it out - keep it for future reference -
>forward it to everyone you know!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> An Open Letter to the Palestinians from an Agnostic
>
>Date: Sun, 26 May 2002
>
>Speaking Truth to the Powerless:
>An Open Letter To The People Commonly Called "Palestinians".
>
>
>Greetings to any Palestinian who may be reading this. My name is
David
>White. I am a citizen of New Zealand, a small, Western, nominally
>Christian country in the South Pacific Ocean. I am not Jewish, or
>Christian, I guess I'm vaguely agnostic.
>
>
>Writing this letter is a good way for me to discuss the horrible mess
>in the Middle East, spell out as many relevant points as possible
>concerning the state of the Palestinian people, and to see what can be
>made of them I don't speak Arabic, so I can only communicate with
>English-speaking Palestinians. There aren't many here in NZ, though,
>and I haven't yet met any. I don't know how many will ever see these
>words, but, here's hoping someone does.
>
>
>I have a post-graduate university education, and I suppose I could be
>called an intellectual. Unfortunately, many such people have supported
>abhorrent ideologies such as Nazism, and continue to support
Communism,
>so I refuse to describe myself in this way. I don't want to considered
>as just another "trendy leftie" academic, as we would say in NZ. So,
>unlike many university-educated types, I am anti-totalitarian,
>pro-peace up to a point, pro-democracy, pro-capitalism (except the
>capitalists running Enron), and skeptical about the "cult of
>victimhood." I'm quite safe here in New Zealand, and no-one I know has
>been killed by a Palestinian.
>
>
>My perspective of Palestinians is something like this - you're Arabs
>(of course), mostly Muslim, but with a Christian minority. Many of you
>live outside Gaza/West Bank, mostly in Jordan and other Muslim
>countries, with some groups living in Western countries as well. You
>feel that you have been wronged by Israel and are fighting to destroy
>them.
>
>
>As for my perspective on Israel, I see them like this. They are a
>mainly Jewish, small, free-market democracy with a large Arab minority
>surrounded by hostile Arab dictatorships. They have an ancestral claim
>to Israel, their state was created as a refuge from persecution, they
>have a right to exist, and, having survived a holocaust in Europe,
they
>should not have to sit still and wait for another one in the Middle
>East.
>
>
>A Down Under Overview.
>
>Over the last few months, the conflict in the disputed territories of
>Gaza and the West Bank has turned into a war between the Palestinian
>people and Israel. (I will not apologize for using the term
"disputed",
>as I believe it reflects a rather complicated situation more
accurately
>than "occupied").
>
>
>Your interpretation, as far as I can tell, seems to be something like
>this: You have no state of your own, and you are fighting a war
against
>those you call "Zionist oppressors" and "colonial imperialists", in
>order to create a Palestinian state.
>
>Accusations of massacre and human rights violations by the Israeli
Army
>are being tossed around like confetti. Your leader, Yasser Arafat,
vows
>to "martyr" himself rather than "surrender", and that bungling and
>incompetent organization, the United Nations (again, no apologies for
>venting personal opinions), is trying to do what it is
constitutionally
>incapable of doing, i.e. "saving future generations from the scourge
of
>war".
>
>
>The Israelis see things differently, of course. For them, it's a
simple
>battle for survival. They offered you a state, and you attacked them
>instead. They have occupied Palestinian towns, have fought it out with
>various armed groups, and desperate attempts are being made by the US,
>other Arab countries and the UN to break the so-called "cycle of
>violence". As a result, the Palestinian situation at the moment
>generally, can be explained by putting it into New Zealand idiom.
>
>
>Put bluntly, the Palestinian people are buggered. Munted. Stuffed.
>Rooted. (American equivalent=screwed. British equivalent: done over).
>It's like this: Yasser Arafat turned down the Israeli offer of a
>Palestinian homeland in Gaza and the West Bank. You want, or Arafat
>claims that you want, a Palestine "from the river to the sea;" in
other
>words, "all or nothing".
>
>
>There is one insuperable obstacle to this- Israel. No matter how
>eloquent your arguments or numerous your martyrs, no matter how many
>European diplomats are angered by, or UN resolutions are passed
>against, Israel, the Israelis are not going to pack up and leave. The
>only way you will get the Palestinian state you want is to destroy
>Israel.
>
>
>This is what you have been trying to do since 1948, and the current
>"intifada" launched in 2000 is your latest effort. However, the
>Israelis are not standing there and letting you kill them. They are
>fighting back, and if they have to choose between their own survival
>and yours, guess which choice they'll make.
>
>
>A Vast Wringing Of Hands, A Great Fluttering Of Diplomats.
>
>That has been the overall response to the disaster you have created
for
>yourselves. You, the Palestinian Arabs, are obviously hoping for some
>kind of international intervention to save you. As we in New Zealand
>would say, "Get Real!".
>
>
>The European Union and the UN have demonstrated on numerous occasions
>in the past their incompetence and total incapacity to take any sort
of
>firm action without American leadership. Ask your Muslim brothers of
>Bosnia-Herzegovina, about how effective the EU and the UN were in
>protecting them without American intervention. In spite of the
>impression that American diplomatic efforts have created, the US will
>not take sides against Israel, and will eventually abandon its futile
>attempts at evenhandedness. If they do join forces militarily with
>Israel in their war against terrorism, your fighters will be snuffed
>out like candle flames.
>
>
>As for your "beloved Arab brothers" in the Middle East, they make a
>great deal of noise about your "liberation struggle", and have sent
>money and arms, but have not sent a single tank to save you. Their
>diplomatic proposals are ones that could have been offered at any
time,
>and are aimed at benefiting them, not Palestinians. The Egyptians
>themselves will not declare war on Israel unless they receive $100
>billion to cover their costs.
>
>
>Do you really believe that the rest of your Arab Muslim brothers think
>you are worth that much? Do you really believe they will put your
>interests ahead of their own? Although your friends and Arabs in
Europe
>are passing sanctions and burning synagogues in your support, not a
>single EU warship has sailed to your aid, and not a single NATO
>aircraft has dropped a single bomb on your "Zionist oppressors".
>
>
>I have noted that large numbers of people, including university
>educated intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled
>by this. No matter how many western intellectuals, news media and
>international organizations may support the Palestinian struggle, none
>of this matters because America stands by Israel.
>
>
>The Unbearable Burden of Life
>
>How did you get into such a mess? As you yourselves would say and have
>indeed said on many occasions, it isn't your fault. It's always the
>"Great Satan" America, and it's "Lesser Satan", Israel, that you blame
>for all your woes. Everything that you do, such as your "martyrdom
>operations", are described as the products of your "rage" at being
>"dispossessed of your land", and of your "helplessness" in the face of
>"Zionist" might.
>
>
>There are only 300 million Arabs against over 5 million Jews! How
>unfair! How unjust, that so many can do so little against so few!
>
>
>A number of Western commentators have put Arab failures down to
>numerous cultural factors, not the least being Islam. Your religious
>beliefs in martyrdom and jihad, coupled with a total inability to
>accept any blame for your own predicament, have combined to do you
>great and lasting damage.
>
>
>Look closely at why Western countries such as Israel have succeeded,
>and Muslim countries have not. Western countries are free-market
>democracies. Muslim countries (other than Turkey) aren't. Surely that
>should tell you something.
>
>
>Why I Stand With Israel
>
>As I said, I do not, and I will not, support the Palestinian cause.
Why
>not? I have a number of reasons, and here they are:
>
>
>1.) You have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that you intend
>to destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population. This is
>genocide, pure and simple. You justify this by saying that Israel has
>committed many crimes against your people, and that you seek
"justice".
>I say this in response - NOTHING WHATSOEVER is an acceptable
>justification for genocide. Loss of land, humiliation at being
>militarily defeated ? others have suffered these and moved on to
create
>new nations and opportunities for themselves.
>
>
>Examples abound- the Germans thrown out of East Prussia in Europe,
>1945, the Nationalist Chinese who fled to Taiwan in 1949, to name but
>two. Germans and Taiwanese have coped with military defeat and the
loss
>of land. They haven't warred with their neighbors, nor have they
>launched terrorist attacks upon them. Both countries have more wealth
>than any Arab nation. Why can't Palestinians cope? Are Germans and
>Chinese better able to deal with adversity than Arabs?
>
>
>2.) You have accused the Israelis of "genocide" against you. Here's a
>question for you: Israel has atomic bombs and powerful military
forces.
>If they really, truly wanted you all dead, they could easily do it.
Why
>haven't they? If the Israelis went all-out, you would be, as we say in
>New Zealand, "dog tucker". Why did they spend so much time negotiating
>with your leaders? Because Israel wants peace and secure borders. You
>refuse to give them even that. You plan genocide and accuse Israel of
>the same crime. Prove it!
>
>
>3.) The use of terrorism. Killing people for being Jewish is
>despicable. Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are also
>despicable. (At this point, I'd like to pause and get a question of
>nomenclature cleared up, regarding those Palestinians who kill
>themselves and others with explosives strapped to their bodies. You
>call them "martyrs". Western media sources and academics debate the
>precise term to use in describing them. Others, including the
Israelis,
>call them terrorists.
>
>
>I have a better, more appropriate term. I prefer to use the word
>"kamikazes". The original kamikazes appeared in 1944, in the war in
the
>Pacific. They were Japanese Navy and Army pilots, organized into
>"Special Attack Units" with orders to crash their planes into American
>warships, in the hope of destroying them - "one plane, one ship".
Their
>initial impact was similar to that of the Al-Quaeda attacks on New
York
>and the
>Pentagon- shock and horror. (I noted that many Palestinians appeared
on
>Western TV celebrating the September attacks). Note: The American
>response, in both cases was not the one
>hoped for.
>
>
>Once the shock had worn off, the US set out to destroy the kamikazes,
>and terrible destruction was rained down on Japan, ending only with 2
>atomic bombs. You know what is happening right now in Afghanistan to
>the Al-Quaeda group).
>
>
>4.) Using children as suicide bombers. Anyone who teaches children to
>kill themselves in suicide attacks is not worth supporting under any
>circumstances. For you to do this to your children is an abomination.
A
>commentator on a Web magazine said that if the Palestinians laid down
>their arms, they would get peace and land. If the Israelis laid down
>their arms, they would be killed. You know that is true, even if most
>of Europe doesn't. Your cause is evil, because it seeks destruction at
>any price. Genocide is not justice. Sacrificing your own children for
>the sake of your leader's personal ambitions is wicked.
>
>
>That's why I cannot support you. That's why I stand with Israel.
>
>
>Palestinian Past or Future?
>
>The Second World War in Europe ended with Hitler's suicide. He was
>replaced by Admiral Doenitz who quickly made peace with the Allies.
>Japan's leader, Emperor Hirohito, decided on surrender rather than see
>his nation destroyed.
>
>
>If Arafat chooses surrender, though, will the rest of the Palestinians
>go along with it? If he dies, will the war end? If the answer to both
>of these questions is No, then the Palestinian people are doomed. Do
>you really prefer death as a people?
>
>Do you fully comprehend what you are doing? If you are indeed aware
>that the path you have embarked on leads to destruction, and if you
>have freely chosen to walk in that direction, then as a people you are
>truly beyond hope.
>
>
>Are Palestinians really going to be a "Kamikaze Nation"? Are you
really
>going to give Israel no other option except your destruction? If they
>must choose, then as Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld said,
"better
>a terrible end than terror without end".
>
>
>Do not think that kamikaze tactics can get you what you want. The
>Israelis can tell you all about Masada, if you ask them. Remember what
>happened to the Japanese at places like Okinawa and Iwo Jima.
>Palestinians deserve better than the current mess you are in now - but
>before you can be given anything, you must offer a sincere peace, you
>must stop teaching your children to hate, you must stop believing that
>"victimhood" justifies everything and - above all other things - GIVE
>UP ISRAEL! Accept that you will never go there again except perhaps as
>workers or tourists. Accept that Jews are human beings. Accept the
>verdict of 1948 and learn to live with it.
>
>
>Invest in banks, not bombs. Build computer chips, not Kalashnikovs.
>Teach science and mathematics, not hate. Look to the future, not the
>past. Stop blaming Americans and Jews for all your problems, and take
>responsibility for your own actions. Read those parts in the Quran
>about living with the "peoples of the Book".
>
>
>Golda Meir, the former Israeli Prime minister, is quoted as saying "
>there will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their
>children more than they hate Israel ". Every time I see pictures of
>Palestinian children waving guns and wearing dummy explosives, then I
>can only say she is right. The alternative to peace is not victory but
>death.
>
>
>Think about it - before it's too late.
>
>
> From an Infidel to Those Who Submit, and are living in the Holy Land
-
>
>May God grant you steadfastness in the face of things that cannot be
>changed, the capacity to cope with those that can be changed, and the
>wisdom and the ability to tell the difference.
>
>
>David White
>Auckland, New Zealand
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Всё чудесатее и чудесатее... (c) Alice
-
Azazello
- Уже с Приветом
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Jewish World Review June 11, 2002 / 1 Tamuz, 5762
http://jewishworldreview.com/0602/pyrrhic.html
The Palestinian pyrrhic loss of 2002
By Rabbi Hillel Goldberg
http://www.jewishworldreview.com | Who won the last battle in the Israel-Palestine war?
Thomas Friedman of the New York Times thinks it was a draw. Palestinians proved they could rattle Israel; Israel proved they couldn't get away with it.
Sounds like a reasonable analysis -- until you study a little history and realize that the question -- who won? -- is the wrong question.
It reveals an ignorance of history.
It diverts us from a longstanding pattern in the Arab-Zionist conflict. Arabs have been adding up their wins against the Jews ever since the beginning of the conflict in the 1880s. With all these wins, the Arabs have scored not Pyrrhic victories.
They have scored Pyrrhic losses.
A Pyrrhic victory is when you win, but the price is so high that you lost.
What I am calling a Pyrrhic loss is this: You lose, but the delusional spin you place on the loss is so positive you think you won.
With a Pyrrhic victory, you re-think. Maybe all the deaths weren't worth it. Maybe conflict shouldn't be an option. With a Pyrrhic victory, you are sobered.
With a Pyrrhic loss, you are the furthest thing from sobered. You get an emotional high. You do not re-think at all. You convince yourself that your victory was so big that you go back for more -- more punishment.
Or, you convince yourself that you really weren't punished; or, if you were, it was all the other side's fault. Pyrrhic loss excludes rational analysis of causality; it excludes self-reflection generally. It tends to the hysterical.
This is a basic pattern in the Israel-Zionist conflict. It goes back long before the State of Israel to the first modern immigration of Jews to the holy land.
They are deadly, these Pyrrhic Arab losses. Because Arabs rarely re-think their conflict with the Zionists, pyrrhic losses multiply. Wars multiply. Terrorism multiplies.
Example: Egypt's response to its defeat by Israel in the 1956 Sinai campaign.
Why was there war? Israel could no longer tolerate Egyptian terrorist murders of Israeli citizens. We have forgotten this, but Egypt was once the largest exporter of terrorism in the Middle East. To put a stop to it, Israel went to war in 1956 and conquered the entire Sinai Peninsula. Israel utterly defeated the Egyptian Army.
You'd never know this by reading the Egyptian statements at the time (see "Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East" by Michael B. Oren, just released by Oxford). Egypt's fairyland interpretation of her condition added up to a big Pyrrhic loss. Egypt believed she won, and not only that. Her "victory" proved that Egypt should and could destroy Israel altogether.
No sober re-thinking here. No facing reality. No consideration that maybe Israel is here to stay and maybe Egypt should make peace. No, nothing loomed in Egyptian eyes but the next "victory."
Purchasing this book
-- linked above --
helps fund JWR
Here follows the full, 1956 context -- it's needed for understanding the pattern of Arab delusion and the outcome of the recent Israeli incursions into Palestinians cities:
In 1956, France and Britain were harmed by Egypt's nationalization of the Suez Canal. The US, under Eisenhower, refused to use or sanction the use of force to re-open the canal. France contacted Britain and Israel (which suffered from Egyptian terrorism); together they hatched their own plan.
Moshe Dayan's military tactics against Egypt were so successful that Egypt didn't even put up a fight. It retreated and ran. In the end, with British and French action, three-quarters of the Suez Canal was reoccupied.
The war proved unpopular with the US, who pressured all three countries to withdraw, which they did. What, however, were the actual, enduring results of the war?
1. Israel gained unrestricted access to the canal.
2. All talk of Egypt recognizing Israel in exchange for large parts of Israeli territory ceased. "Land for peace" was not a post-1967, post-Six Day War invention. It began the minute the armistice agreements of 1949 were signed. Under those agreements, Israel had the Negev. Israel wasn't supposed to receive the Negev under the 1947 UN partition plan. Israel conquered the Negev in her ensuing War of Independence because Egypt attacked Israel and lost. Egypt thought this meant Israel had to give back the Negev!
Observe: When people today, even the most liberal Jews and Arabs, advocate "land for peace," they do not include the Negev. The most fervent peacenik today speaks only of Israel returning to her pre-1967 borders, i.e., the armistice lines under which Israel took control of the Negev.
So here's the Arab Pyrrhic loss of 1956: By refusing to recognize Israel and then sending terrorists into Israel, Egypt eventually lost a major part of her territorial designs on Israel.
Delusion is the other reason why Egypt's loss was "Pyrrhic":
1. Egypt convinced herself that she never lost. Dayan never defeated the Egyptian army . . . it merely exercised a strategic retreat! Egypt actually won. (Never mind that reality was just the opposite.)
2. Egypt defeated the imperialists, Britain and France. (Never mind that the "imperialists" reopened the canal, even to Israeli shipping.)
Because of these Egyptian delusions, it set about to plan the next war. If it won the present war (1956), imagine how big the victory in the next one would be! In what became the Six Day War of 1967, Nasser would drive Israel into the sea. (Never mind that Nasser lost his entire air force and army in two days and the entire Sinai Peninsula, including its oil fields and Gaza Strip.)
So who won the last battle in the Israel-Palestine war?
It's the wrong question because there is no reality of "loss" in the Palestinian Arab vocabulary. Each war is merely the delusional ground for the next battle.
With enough space, I could trace this pattern throughout the Zionist-Arab conflict from its very beginning. But with the 1956 Sinai Campaign as one paradigmatic example, let us sketch the pattern in 2002.
With the Israeli incursions into Palestinian cities after the Passover Massacre, the reality is that the Palestinians lost most of their terrorist capacity. But not in the Palestinian mind. It says: We won. We showed we can destroy Israel with suicide bombings. And we will win the next victory too -- we will force Israel to her knees because of her massacre in the Jenin refugee camp.
The facts say: There was no Palestinian win (damage yes, win no). And there was no massacre in Jenin. Just as in 1956, there was only this: the reality of loss versus the delusion of victory. The reality was that in 1956 Dayan defeated Egypt, but Egypt took this as a mere stage for the next "victory" (the even bigger loss of 1967). Loss vs. delusion: the pattern repeats itself in 2002. Israel severely damaged the Palestinian terrorist capacity, but Palestinians take this as a mere stage for a bigger victory next time.
With each Arab attempt to destroy Israel, and with each Israeli defeat of the attempt, Arabs do not rethink, do not say: Maybe, just maybe, the time has come to accept a Jewish presence in the Middle East. (I say, accept a Jewish presence rather than accept Israel, because long before the creation of Israel in 1948 the Arabs' delusional rejection of the Jewish presence in the holy land -- past as well as present -- was the same.)
So when we ask, "Who won the latest battle in the Israel-Palestinian conflict?" we need to define terms. Politics and military aren't the relevant terms. On that level, Israel won a lot militarily and lost a lot politically; the Palestinians lost a lot militarily and won a lot politically -- the same pattern as in 1956.
But these aren't the real terms. By the real terms, the Palestinians lost, period.
In two senses:
1. Delusion still rules their analysis. By continuing to refuse to accept Israel, Palestinians guarantee more battles -- more blood -- the greatest proportion of which is Arab blood.
2. By refusing to accept Israel with their latest resort to violence, Palestinians again damaged their territorial ambitions. Just as the 1956 war killed an Israeli "return of the Negev," the 2002 violence killed the possibility of a Palestinian state free of the threat of invasion.
Before the recent Israeli incursions, it was still possible to dream of "two states living in peace side by side." This is no longer anyone's expectation -- not that of the Israeli right or left, not that of Europe, the US or the Arab world. Now, the best that Palestinians can hope for is an independent state with an Israeli army poised to invade at the first sign of Palestinian terrorism.
That's the consequence of the delusion -- the Palestinian "Pyrrhic loss" -- of post-Passover, 2002.
JWR contributor Rabbi Hillel Goldberg is Executive Editor of the Intermountain Jewish News
http://jewishworldreview.com/0602/pyrrhic.html
The Palestinian pyrrhic loss of 2002
By Rabbi Hillel Goldberg
http://www.jewishworldreview.com | Who won the last battle in the Israel-Palestine war?
Thomas Friedman of the New York Times thinks it was a draw. Palestinians proved they could rattle Israel; Israel proved they couldn't get away with it.
Sounds like a reasonable analysis -- until you study a little history and realize that the question -- who won? -- is the wrong question.
It reveals an ignorance of history.
It diverts us from a longstanding pattern in the Arab-Zionist conflict. Arabs have been adding up their wins against the Jews ever since the beginning of the conflict in the 1880s. With all these wins, the Arabs have scored not Pyrrhic victories.
They have scored Pyrrhic losses.
A Pyrrhic victory is when you win, but the price is so high that you lost.
What I am calling a Pyrrhic loss is this: You lose, but the delusional spin you place on the loss is so positive you think you won.
With a Pyrrhic victory, you re-think. Maybe all the deaths weren't worth it. Maybe conflict shouldn't be an option. With a Pyrrhic victory, you are sobered.
With a Pyrrhic loss, you are the furthest thing from sobered. You get an emotional high. You do not re-think at all. You convince yourself that your victory was so big that you go back for more -- more punishment.
Or, you convince yourself that you really weren't punished; or, if you were, it was all the other side's fault. Pyrrhic loss excludes rational analysis of causality; it excludes self-reflection generally. It tends to the hysterical.
This is a basic pattern in the Israel-Zionist conflict. It goes back long before the State of Israel to the first modern immigration of Jews to the holy land.
They are deadly, these Pyrrhic Arab losses. Because Arabs rarely re-think their conflict with the Zionists, pyrrhic losses multiply. Wars multiply. Terrorism multiplies.
Example: Egypt's response to its defeat by Israel in the 1956 Sinai campaign.
Why was there war? Israel could no longer tolerate Egyptian terrorist murders of Israeli citizens. We have forgotten this, but Egypt was once the largest exporter of terrorism in the Middle East. To put a stop to it, Israel went to war in 1956 and conquered the entire Sinai Peninsula. Israel utterly defeated the Egyptian Army.
You'd never know this by reading the Egyptian statements at the time (see "Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East" by Michael B. Oren, just released by Oxford). Egypt's fairyland interpretation of her condition added up to a big Pyrrhic loss. Egypt believed she won, and not only that. Her "victory" proved that Egypt should and could destroy Israel altogether.
No sober re-thinking here. No facing reality. No consideration that maybe Israel is here to stay and maybe Egypt should make peace. No, nothing loomed in Egyptian eyes but the next "victory."
Purchasing this book
-- linked above --
helps fund JWR
Here follows the full, 1956 context -- it's needed for understanding the pattern of Arab delusion and the outcome of the recent Israeli incursions into Palestinians cities:
In 1956, France and Britain were harmed by Egypt's nationalization of the Suez Canal. The US, under Eisenhower, refused to use or sanction the use of force to re-open the canal. France contacted Britain and Israel (which suffered from Egyptian terrorism); together they hatched their own plan.
Moshe Dayan's military tactics against Egypt were so successful that Egypt didn't even put up a fight. It retreated and ran. In the end, with British and French action, three-quarters of the Suez Canal was reoccupied.
The war proved unpopular with the US, who pressured all three countries to withdraw, which they did. What, however, were the actual, enduring results of the war?
1. Israel gained unrestricted access to the canal.
2. All talk of Egypt recognizing Israel in exchange for large parts of Israeli territory ceased. "Land for peace" was not a post-1967, post-Six Day War invention. It began the minute the armistice agreements of 1949 were signed. Under those agreements, Israel had the Negev. Israel wasn't supposed to receive the Negev under the 1947 UN partition plan. Israel conquered the Negev in her ensuing War of Independence because Egypt attacked Israel and lost. Egypt thought this meant Israel had to give back the Negev!
Observe: When people today, even the most liberal Jews and Arabs, advocate "land for peace," they do not include the Negev. The most fervent peacenik today speaks only of Israel returning to her pre-1967 borders, i.e., the armistice lines under which Israel took control of the Negev.
So here's the Arab Pyrrhic loss of 1956: By refusing to recognize Israel and then sending terrorists into Israel, Egypt eventually lost a major part of her territorial designs on Israel.
Delusion is the other reason why Egypt's loss was "Pyrrhic":
1. Egypt convinced herself that she never lost. Dayan never defeated the Egyptian army . . . it merely exercised a strategic retreat! Egypt actually won. (Never mind that reality was just the opposite.)
2. Egypt defeated the imperialists, Britain and France. (Never mind that the "imperialists" reopened the canal, even to Israeli shipping.)
Because of these Egyptian delusions, it set about to plan the next war. If it won the present war (1956), imagine how big the victory in the next one would be! In what became the Six Day War of 1967, Nasser would drive Israel into the sea. (Never mind that Nasser lost his entire air force and army in two days and the entire Sinai Peninsula, including its oil fields and Gaza Strip.)
So who won the last battle in the Israel-Palestine war?
It's the wrong question because there is no reality of "loss" in the Palestinian Arab vocabulary. Each war is merely the delusional ground for the next battle.
With enough space, I could trace this pattern throughout the Zionist-Arab conflict from its very beginning. But with the 1956 Sinai Campaign as one paradigmatic example, let us sketch the pattern in 2002.
With the Israeli incursions into Palestinian cities after the Passover Massacre, the reality is that the Palestinians lost most of their terrorist capacity. But not in the Palestinian mind. It says: We won. We showed we can destroy Israel with suicide bombings. And we will win the next victory too -- we will force Israel to her knees because of her massacre in the Jenin refugee camp.
The facts say: There was no Palestinian win (damage yes, win no). And there was no massacre in Jenin. Just as in 1956, there was only this: the reality of loss versus the delusion of victory. The reality was that in 1956 Dayan defeated Egypt, but Egypt took this as a mere stage for the next "victory" (the even bigger loss of 1967). Loss vs. delusion: the pattern repeats itself in 2002. Israel severely damaged the Palestinian terrorist capacity, but Palestinians take this as a mere stage for a bigger victory next time.
With each Arab attempt to destroy Israel, and with each Israeli defeat of the attempt, Arabs do not rethink, do not say: Maybe, just maybe, the time has come to accept a Jewish presence in the Middle East. (I say, accept a Jewish presence rather than accept Israel, because long before the creation of Israel in 1948 the Arabs' delusional rejection of the Jewish presence in the holy land -- past as well as present -- was the same.)
So when we ask, "Who won the latest battle in the Israel-Palestinian conflict?" we need to define terms. Politics and military aren't the relevant terms. On that level, Israel won a lot militarily and lost a lot politically; the Palestinians lost a lot militarily and won a lot politically -- the same pattern as in 1956.
But these aren't the real terms. By the real terms, the Palestinians lost, period.
In two senses:
1. Delusion still rules their analysis. By continuing to refuse to accept Israel, Palestinians guarantee more battles -- more blood -- the greatest proportion of which is Arab blood.
2. By refusing to accept Israel with their latest resort to violence, Palestinians again damaged their territorial ambitions. Just as the 1956 war killed an Israeli "return of the Negev," the 2002 violence killed the possibility of a Palestinian state free of the threat of invasion.
Before the recent Israeli incursions, it was still possible to dream of "two states living in peace side by side." This is no longer anyone's expectation -- not that of the Israeli right or left, not that of Europe, the US or the Arab world. Now, the best that Palestinians can hope for is an independent state with an Israeli army poised to invade at the first sign of Palestinian terrorism.
That's the consequence of the delusion -- the Palestinian "Pyrrhic loss" -- of post-Passover, 2002.
JWR contributor Rabbi Hillel Goldberg is Executive Editor of the Intermountain Jewish News
Всё чудесатее и чудесатее... (c) Alice
-
Azazello
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 3179
- Joined: 12 Jun 2001 09:01
- Location: SPb,Russia->Rehovot, Israel->Cambridge, MA
[quote:470059733d="CBETA*"]ssilka po teme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm[/quote:470059733d]
Как всегда, BBC подаёт материал профессионально, опуская и вымарывая арабский террор и раздувая "оккупацию" и "чрезмерное применение силы" евреями.
Если бочку варенья смешать с бочкой дерьма - получатся 2 бочки дерьма. Если половину правды смешать с половиной лжи - получится одна большая ложь.
Израиль существует и будет существовать, независимо от ООН и прочих сомнительных организаций.
Да, если вам нечего обсуждать - пообсуждайте курдское движение за независимость для разнообразия что ли...
Оставьте евреев в покое один раз...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm[/quote:470059733d]
Как всегда, BBC подаёт материал профессионально, опуская и вымарывая арабский террор и раздувая "оккупацию" и "чрезмерное применение силы" евреями.
Если бочку варенья смешать с бочкой дерьма - получатся 2 бочки дерьма. Если половину правды смешать с половиной лжи - получится одна большая ложь.
Израиль существует и будет существовать, независимо от ООН и прочих сомнительных организаций.
Да, если вам нечего обсуждать - пообсуждайте курдское движение за независимость для разнообразия что ли...
Оставьте евреев в покое один раз...
Всё чудесатее и чудесатее... (c) Alice
-
Звездочёт
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 1048
- Joined: 20 Sep 2001 09:01
- Location: ФРГ
Света, спасибо за интересную ссылку.
В процессе установления мира, в 1995 году благодаря п.-министру Рабину, были достигнуты многие компромиссы:
цитата:
[quote:113e1fb8ec] Поселенческая активность продолжалась. Палестинские
власти справились с беспорядками путем массовых арестов.
Среди правых и религиозных националистов в Израиле росла
оппозиция мирному процессу.
На этом фоне мирные переговоры шли трудно и сбились с
графика. Но 24 сентября в египетском городе Таба было
подписано соглашение "Осло-II", которое через четыре дня
вторично было подписано в Вашингтоне.
Соглашение поделило Западный Берег на три зоны:
Зона А: 7% территории под полным контролем
палестинцев (это главные палестинские города кроме
Хеврона и Восточного Иерусалима).
Зона B: 21% территории под совместным
израильско-палестинским контролем.
Зона С: оставалась в руках израильтян.
Израиль должен был также освободить палестинских
заключенных.
"Осло-II" было встречено палестинцами с осторожным
энтузиазмом. В то же время религиозные и правые круги
Израиля были в ярости от "сдачи еврейской земли".
В разгар кампании против израильского премьер-министра
Ицхака Рабина еврейский религиозный экстремист убил его.
Это произошло 4 ноября и вызвало шок во всем мире.
Премьер-министром стал "голубь" Шимон Перес, архитектор
заходившего в тупик мирного процесса. [/quote:113e1fb8ec]
Как видно, не всегда мирному процессу мешали палестинские боевики. Израильские тоже (это не упрёк, а установление факта.)
Далее пришёл к власти Нетаньяху и чуть всё не испортил:
[quote:113e1fb8ec]Нетаньяху вскоре воспламенил арабское общественное
мнение тем, что снял мораторий на строительство новых
поселений на оккупированных территориях. Он также открыл
археологический тоннель под комплексом зданий мечети
аль-Акса - одной из самых почитаемых в исламском мире.
Этим израильский премьер спровоцировал обвинения в том,
что подрывает значение святых для мусульман мест в
Иерусалиме.
Несмотря на его оппозицию существующему мирному
процессу, Нетаньяху под растущим давлением США передал
палестинцам в январе 1997 года более 80% территории
города Хеврон. А 23 октября 1998 года подписал
"Меморандум Уайривер", согласно которому Израиль должен
был продолжать вывод войск с Западного берега.
Впрочем, в январе 1999 года споры о реализации
"Меморандума Уайривер" привели к развалу правой
коалиции Нетаньяху. 18 мая он проиграл выборы лидеру
партии Труда Эхуду Бараку, который пообещал за год
"закончить столетний конфликт" между израильтянами и
арабами. [/quote:113e1fb8ec]
В процессе установления мира, в 1995 году благодаря п.-министру Рабину, были достигнуты многие компромиссы:
цитата:
[quote:113e1fb8ec] Поселенческая активность продолжалась. Палестинские
власти справились с беспорядками путем массовых арестов.
Среди правых и религиозных националистов в Израиле росла
оппозиция мирному процессу.
На этом фоне мирные переговоры шли трудно и сбились с
графика. Но 24 сентября в египетском городе Таба было
подписано соглашение "Осло-II", которое через четыре дня
вторично было подписано в Вашингтоне.
Соглашение поделило Западный Берег на три зоны:
Зона А: 7% территории под полным контролем
палестинцев (это главные палестинские города кроме
Хеврона и Восточного Иерусалима).
Зона B: 21% территории под совместным
израильско-палестинским контролем.
Зона С: оставалась в руках израильтян.
Израиль должен был также освободить палестинских
заключенных.
"Осло-II" было встречено палестинцами с осторожным
энтузиазмом. В то же время религиозные и правые круги
Израиля были в ярости от "сдачи еврейской земли".
В разгар кампании против израильского премьер-министра
Ицхака Рабина еврейский религиозный экстремист убил его.
Это произошло 4 ноября и вызвало шок во всем мире.
Премьер-министром стал "голубь" Шимон Перес, архитектор
заходившего в тупик мирного процесса. [/quote:113e1fb8ec]
Как видно, не всегда мирному процессу мешали палестинские боевики. Израильские тоже (это не упрёк, а установление факта.)
Далее пришёл к власти Нетаньяху и чуть всё не испортил:
[quote:113e1fb8ec]Нетаньяху вскоре воспламенил арабское общественное
мнение тем, что снял мораторий на строительство новых
поселений на оккупированных территориях. Он также открыл
археологический тоннель под комплексом зданий мечети
аль-Акса - одной из самых почитаемых в исламском мире.
Этим израильский премьер спровоцировал обвинения в том,
что подрывает значение святых для мусульман мест в
Иерусалиме.
Несмотря на его оппозицию существующему мирному
процессу, Нетаньяху под растущим давлением США передал
палестинцам в январе 1997 года более 80% территории
города Хеврон. А 23 октября 1998 года подписал
"Меморандум Уайривер", согласно которому Израиль должен
был продолжать вывод войск с Западного берега.
Впрочем, в январе 1999 года споры о реализации
"Меморандума Уайривер" привели к развалу правой
коалиции Нетаньяху. 18 мая он проиграл выборы лидеру
партии Труда Эхуду Бараку, который пообещал за год
"закончить столетний конфликт" между израильтянами и
арабами. [/quote:113e1fb8ec]
-
CBETA*
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- Location: Laguna Beach , CA
[quote:96bcb85055="Azazello"][quote:96bcb85055="CBETA*"]ssilka po teme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm[/quote:96bcb85055]
Как всегда, BBC подаёт материал профессионально, опуская и вымарывая арабский террор и раздувая "оккупацию" и "чрезмерное применение силы" евреями.
Если бочку варенья смешать с бочкой дерьма - получатся 2 бочки дерьма. Если половину правды смешать с половиной лжи - получится одна большая ложь.
Израиль существует и будет существовать, независимо от ООН и прочих сомнительных организаций.
Да, если вам нечего обсуждать - пообсуждайте курдское движение за независимость для разнообразия что ли...
Оставьте евреев в покое один раз...[/quote:96bcb85055]
Azazello, a mne pokazalos' chto BBC zanimaet pro Israil'skuju poziciju,
no Vam vidnee.
Skazhite pozhaluista vozmozhen li podobnii variant reshenija problemi , na Vash vzgljad:
Izrail vozvrashaet zemli poselenija, obrazuetsja Palestinskoe gosudartvo, kotoroe priznaet Izrael v svoju ochered'.
Esli takoe ne vozmozhno, to pojasnite pochemu?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm[/quote:96bcb85055]
Как всегда, BBC подаёт материал профессионально, опуская и вымарывая арабский террор и раздувая "оккупацию" и "чрезмерное применение силы" евреями.
Если бочку варенья смешать с бочкой дерьма - получатся 2 бочки дерьма. Если половину правды смешать с половиной лжи - получится одна большая ложь.
Израиль существует и будет существовать, независимо от ООН и прочих сомнительных организаций.
Да, если вам нечего обсуждать - пообсуждайте курдское движение за независимость для разнообразия что ли...
Оставьте евреев в покое один раз...[/quote:96bcb85055]
Azazello, a mne pokazalos' chto BBC zanimaet pro Israil'skuju poziciju,
no Vam vidnee.
Skazhite pozhaluista vozmozhen li podobnii variant reshenija problemi , na Vash vzgljad:
Izrail vozvrashaet zemli poselenija, obrazuetsja Palestinskoe gosudartvo, kotoroe priznaet Izrael v svoju ochered'.
Esli takoe ne vozmozhno, to pojasnite pochemu?
-
Vesh
- Уже с Приветом
- Posts: 4314
- Joined: 29 Dec 2000 10:01
[quote:2b10112f1f="CBETA*"][quote:2b10112f1f="Azazello"][quote:2b10112f1f="CBETA*"]ssilka po teme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm[/quote:2b10112f1f]
Как всегда, BBC подаёт материал профессионально, опуская и вымарывая арабский террор и раздувая "оккупацию" и "чрезмерное применение силы" евреями.
Если бочку варенья смешать с бочкой дерьма - получатся 2 бочки дерьма. Если половину правды смешать с половиной лжи - получится одна большая ложь.
Израиль существует и будет существовать, независимо от ООН и прочих сомнительных организаций.
Да, если вам нечего обсуждать - пообсуждайте курдское движение за независимость для разнообразия что ли...
Оставьте евреев в покое один раз...[/quote:2b10112f1f]
Azazello, a mne pokazalos' chto BBC zanimaet pro Israil'skuju poziciju,
no Vam vidnee.
Skazhite pozhaluista vozmozhen li podobnii variant reshenija problemi , na Vash vzgljad:
Izrail vozvrashaet zemli poselenija, obrazuetsja Palestinskoe gosudartvo, kotoroe priznaet Izrael v svoju ochered'.
Esli takoe ne vozmozhno, to pojasnite pochemu?[/quote:2b10112f1f]
Война вполне возможна и между государствами, признающими друг друга.
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/specials/m ... efault.stm[/quote:2b10112f1f]
Как всегда, BBC подаёт материал профессионально, опуская и вымарывая арабский террор и раздувая "оккупацию" и "чрезмерное применение силы" евреями.
Если бочку варенья смешать с бочкой дерьма - получатся 2 бочки дерьма. Если половину правды смешать с половиной лжи - получится одна большая ложь.
Израиль существует и будет существовать, независимо от ООН и прочих сомнительных организаций.
Да, если вам нечего обсуждать - пообсуждайте курдское движение за независимость для разнообразия что ли...
Оставьте евреев в покое один раз...[/quote:2b10112f1f]
Azazello, a mne pokazalos' chto BBC zanimaet pro Israil'skuju poziciju,
no Vam vidnee.
Skazhite pozhaluista vozmozhen li podobnii variant reshenija problemi , na Vash vzgljad:
Izrail vozvrashaet zemli poselenija, obrazuetsja Palestinskoe gosudartvo, kotoroe priznaet Izrael v svoju ochered'.
Esli takoe ne vozmozhno, to pojasnite pochemu?[/quote:2b10112f1f]
Война вполне возможна и между государствами, признающими друг друга.
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)
Ёж - птица гордая: пока не пнёшь, не полетит.
-
Звездочёт
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- Location: ФРГ
Э-х-х, в Кэмп-Дэвиде был реальный шанс установления мира, но..Арафат отказался.
На сколько я знаю, не смотря на то, что Арафату предлагали вернуть почти все захваченные территории, статус Иерусалима не был решён. И Арафат сказал - нет.
Так же сыграло роль, что Арафат, всё-таки бывший террорист, а не дипломат. Возможно он интуитивно не уловил, что это его последний шанс на мир.
[quote:720a472a1f]Но в течение двух недель переговоров стороны не смогли
выработать приемлемых друг для друга вариантов решения
вопросов о статусе Иерусалима и права палестинских
беженцев на возвращение.
В неопределенности последовавшего за этим тупика ветеран
израильских правых Ариэль Шарон, который сменил
Нетаньяху на посту лидера блока Ликуд, посетил комплекс
зданий мечети аль-Акса на Храмовой горе в Иерусалиме. Это
произошло 28 сентября. Критики Шарона увидели в этом
провокационных жест.
За этим событием последовали палестинские демонстрации,
которые быстро переросли в восстание, ставшее известным
как "интифада аль-Аксы". [/quote:720a472a1f]
На сколько я знаю, не смотря на то, что Арафату предлагали вернуть почти все захваченные территории, статус Иерусалима не был решён. И Арафат сказал - нет.
Так же сыграло роль, что Арафат, всё-таки бывший террорист, а не дипломат. Возможно он интуитивно не уловил, что это его последний шанс на мир.
[quote:720a472a1f]Но в течение двух недель переговоров стороны не смогли
выработать приемлемых друг для друга вариантов решения
вопросов о статусе Иерусалима и права палестинских
беженцев на возвращение.
В неопределенности последовавшего за этим тупика ветеран
израильских правых Ариэль Шарон, который сменил
Нетаньяху на посту лидера блока Ликуд, посетил комплекс
зданий мечети аль-Акса на Храмовой горе в Иерусалиме. Это
произошло 28 сентября. Критики Шарона увидели в этом
провокационных жест.
За этим событием последовали палестинские демонстрации,
которые быстро переросли в восстание, ставшее известным
как "интифада аль-Аксы". [/quote:720a472a1f]
-
Звездочёт
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- Location: ФРГ
[quote:a4def3af59="Vesh"]
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)[/quote:a4def3af59]
Верно.
Кстати, если бы Израиль, помог бы (к примеру, финансово) беженцам, потенциальных камикадзе, стало бы значительно меньше.
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)[/quote:a4def3af59]
Верно.
Кстати, если бы Израиль, помог бы (к примеру, финансово) беженцам, потенциальных камикадзе, стало бы значительно меньше.
-
CBETA*
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- Location: Laguna Beach , CA
[quote:b60b6670cf="Vesh"]
Война вполне возможна и между государствами, признающими друг друга.
[/quote:b60b6670cf]
Да конечно возможна, но каково возможное решение проблеми?
Если не договориться миром, то на как долго хватит терпения Израеля? Как долго Америка будет придерживать их руки?
Ведь не допустят же варианта полного уничтожения евреискохо населения мартирами палестини? ( гипотетически ето возможно 300 млн арабов против 5 млн евреев)
Война вполне возможна и между государствами, признающими друг друга.
[/quote:b60b6670cf]
Да конечно возможна, но каково возможное решение проблеми?
Если не договориться миром, то на как долго хватит терпения Израеля? Как долго Америка будет придерживать их руки?
Ведь не допустят же варианта полного уничтожения евреискохо населения мартирами палестини? ( гипотетически ето возможно 300 млн арабов против 5 млн евреев)
-
Vesh
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[quote:7eb4eef940="Звездочёт"][quote:7eb4eef940="Vesh"]
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)[/quote:7eb4eef940]
Верно.
Кстати, если бы Израиль, помог бы (к примеру, финансово) беженцам, потенциальных камикадзе, стало бы значительно меньше.[/quote:7eb4eef940]
Это сложный вопрос. Прямо противоположный сценарий IMHO не менее вероятен. Кроме того, беженцы в третьем поколении лично у меня вызывают подозрение. Профессиональным беженством попахивает.
Но изначальный смысл моего утверждения вовсе не в этом, а в том, что Палестина выдвигает совершенно неприемлемое требование к Израилю, что ставит под сомнение её заинтересованность в переговорах.
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)[/quote:7eb4eef940]
Верно.
Кстати, если бы Израиль, помог бы (к примеру, финансово) беженцам, потенциальных камикадзе, стало бы значительно меньше.[/quote:7eb4eef940]
Это сложный вопрос. Прямо противоположный сценарий IMHO не менее вероятен. Кроме того, беженцы в третьем поколении лично у меня вызывают подозрение. Профессиональным беженством попахивает.
Но изначальный смысл моего утверждения вовсе не в этом, а в том, что Палестина выдвигает совершенно неприемлемое требование к Израилю, что ставит под сомнение её заинтересованность в переговорах.
Last edited by Vesh on 15 Jun 2002 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
Ёж - птица гордая: пока не пнёшь, не полетит.
-
Vesh
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[quote:e02162c5c9="CBETA*"][quote:e02162c5c9="Vesh"]
Война вполне возможна и между государствами, признающими друг друга.
[/quote:e02162c5c9]
Да конечно возможна, но каково возможное решение проблеми?
Если не договориться миром, то на как долго хватит терпения Израеля? Как долго Америка будет придерживать их руки?
Ведь не допустят же варианта полного уничтожения евреискохо населения мартирами палестини? ( гипотетически ето возможно 300 млн арабов против 5 млн евреев)[/quote:e02162c5c9]
В смысле, признание Израиля Палестиной - ещё не решение проблемы.
Война вполне возможна и между государствами, признающими друг друга.
[/quote:e02162c5c9]
Да конечно возможна, но каково возможное решение проблеми?
Если не договориться миром, то на как долго хватит терпения Израеля? Как долго Америка будет придерживать их руки?
Ведь не допустят же варианта полного уничтожения евреискохо населения мартирами палестини? ( гипотетически ето возможно 300 млн арабов против 5 млн евреев)[/quote:e02162c5c9]
В смысле, признание Израиля Палестиной - ещё не решение проблемы.
Ёж - птица гордая: пока не пнёшь, не полетит.
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Vesh
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arhitektor
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Re: Ближний Восток
[quote:4dfa52a4a8="Звездочёт"]Поэтому я решил попробовать ещё раз проанализировать ситуацию на Ближнем Востоке. Попробовать найти причины, если не всей войны, то последней интифады.
Возможно так же найти выход из сложившийся ситуации.[/quote:4dfa52a4a8]
Вы всерьез предполагаете, что Вы сможете найти "выход из сложившейся ситуации"?
Возможно так же найти выход из сложившийся ситуации.[/quote:4dfa52a4a8]
Вы всерьез предполагаете, что Вы сможете найти "выход из сложившейся ситуации"?
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Sonia
- Новичок
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- Location: Israel
[quote:70c5951e5c="Звездочёт"][quote:70c5951e5c="Vesh"]
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)[/quote:70c5951e5c]
Верно.
Кстати, если бы Израиль, помог бы (к примеру, финансово) беженцам, потенциальных камикадзе, стало бы значительно меньше.[/quote:70c5951e5c]
Вы даже представить не можете, какие невероятные суммы Израиль
перечисляет палестинцам. К сожалению, до простых людей эти деньги
доходят, может, чуть лучше, чем все другие деньги, которые получает Арафат для помощи своему народу.
В любом случае, Израиль не может соревноваться с Саддамом Хусейном, установившим денежную премию семье каждого камикадзе и периодически ее повышающим. Да и странный это несколько способ борьбы с камикадзе...
А ещё есть проблема палестинских беженцев (без решения которой Палестина на настоящий момент не соглашается признавать Израиль - или я что-то упустил?)[/quote:70c5951e5c]
Верно.
Кстати, если бы Израиль, помог бы (к примеру, финансово) беженцам, потенциальных камикадзе, стало бы значительно меньше.[/quote:70c5951e5c]
Вы даже представить не можете, какие невероятные суммы Израиль
перечисляет палестинцам. К сожалению, до простых людей эти деньги
доходят, может, чуть лучше, чем все другие деньги, которые получает Арафат для помощи своему народу.
В любом случае, Израиль не может соревноваться с Саддамом Хусейном, установившим денежную премию семье каждого камикадзе и периодически ее повышающим. Да и странный это несколько способ борьбы с камикадзе...
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CBETA*
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Re: Ближний Восток
[quote:433970384e="arhitektor"]
Вы всерьез предполагаете, что Вы сможете найти "выход из сложившейся ситуации"?[/quote:433970384e]
Но ведь кто-то должен наити виход?
....не предполагаю что ето будем ми -"приветовская публика", но попитаться ми можем.
Вы всерьез предполагаете, что Вы сможете найти "выход из сложившейся ситуации"?[/quote:433970384e]
Но ведь кто-то должен наити виход?
....не предполагаю что ето будем ми -"приветовская публика", но попитаться ми можем.
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Azazello
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DP
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Sonia
- Новичок
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- Location: Israel
[quote:46d4df414d="DP"][quote:46d4df414d="Sonia"]Вы даже представить не можете, какие невероятные суммы Израиль
перечисляет палестинцам. [/quote:46d4df414d]
можно ли дать некие документальные сведения о размерах помощи государства Израиль неблагодарным палестинцам... спасибо...[/quote:46d4df414d]
Никто не называл палестинцев неблагодарными. Палестинцы - несчастные.
Все безумные бабки, которые Арафат на них получает от умиленного их горем прогрессивного человечества, идут совсем не на то, чтобы сделать для них хоть что-то. Например, несколько месяцев назад было требование перестать поставлять в Газу электричество, потому что долг за него был на
тото момент что-то типа миллиона долларов. И что, кто-то из палестинских лидеров шевельнул пальцем, чтобы заплатить долг и спасти от отключения электричества густонаселенные районы с беднейшими многодетными семьями? (предвидя вопли - не отключили им ничего, из гуманитарных соображений). Что, Арафата волнует, что после начала его террористической деятельности безработица среди палестинского населения превысила 50%,
потому что они больше не могут работать в Израиле? Последнего туземца
в дебрях Австралии больше волнует палестинский народ, чем Арафата.
Так что слово неблагодарные возьмите, пожалуйста, назад.
Что касается цифр - мне честно лень их искать, и если Вы не верите мне
на слово, значит, не верите. Просто недавно обсуждали очередные сокращения в бюджете - с образования урезали, с пособий на детей,
налоги дополнительные повводили; а от перечислений в автономию ни шекеля не откусили, а то не дай Бог Арафату еще на пару винтовок не хватит
с наших-то налогов.
перечисляет палестинцам. [/quote:46d4df414d]
можно ли дать некие документальные сведения о размерах помощи государства Израиль неблагодарным палестинцам... спасибо...[/quote:46d4df414d]
Никто не называл палестинцев неблагодарными. Палестинцы - несчастные.
Все безумные бабки, которые Арафат на них получает от умиленного их горем прогрессивного человечества, идут совсем не на то, чтобы сделать для них хоть что-то. Например, несколько месяцев назад было требование перестать поставлять в Газу электричество, потому что долг за него был на
тото момент что-то типа миллиона долларов. И что, кто-то из палестинских лидеров шевельнул пальцем, чтобы заплатить долг и спасти от отключения электричества густонаселенные районы с беднейшими многодетными семьями? (предвидя вопли - не отключили им ничего, из гуманитарных соображений). Что, Арафата волнует, что после начала его террористической деятельности безработица среди палестинского населения превысила 50%,
потому что они больше не могут работать в Израиле? Последнего туземца
в дебрях Австралии больше волнует палестинский народ, чем Арафата.
Так что слово неблагодарные возьмите, пожалуйста, назад.
Что касается цифр - мне честно лень их искать, и если Вы не верите мне
на слово, значит, не верите. Просто недавно обсуждали очередные сокращения в бюджете - с образования урезали, с пособий на детей,
налоги дополнительные повводили; а от перечислений в автономию ни шекеля не откусили, а то не дай Бог Арафату еще на пару винтовок не хватит
с наших-то налогов.
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Lagano
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Azazello
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- Posts: 3179
- Joined: 12 Jun 2001 09:01
- Location: SPb,Russia->Rehovot, Israel->Cambridge, MA
[quote:d29d614122="Lagano"][quote:d29d614122="Sonia"]Вы даже представить не можете, какие невероятные суммы Израиль
перечисляет палестинцам.[/quote:d29d614122]
Вы даже представить не можете, какие невероятные суммы США
перечисляет Израилю.[/quote:d29d614122]
Могу: 3 миллиарда долларов в год. Из них на 2.8 закупается военное снаряжение... где? правильно, в США. Без этих подачек Израилю было бы гораздо лучше, но когда Нетаниягу попытался от них отделаться почему-то выяснилось, что Америка этого не хочет. Ибо это, в частности, означает, закрытие многих предприятий в США, поскольку не будучи связан с этими подачками Израиль собирался разместить эти заказы в России, Украине и Казахстане.
перечисляет палестинцам.[/quote:d29d614122]
Вы даже представить не можете, какие невероятные суммы США
перечисляет Израилю.[/quote:d29d614122]
Могу: 3 миллиарда долларов в год. Из них на 2.8 закупается военное снаряжение... где? правильно, в США. Без этих подачек Израилю было бы гораздо лучше, но когда Нетаниягу попытался от них отделаться почему-то выяснилось, что Америка этого не хочет. Ибо это, в частности, означает, закрытие многих предприятий в США, поскольку не будучи связан с этими подачками Израиль собирался разместить эти заказы в России, Украине и Казахстане.
Всё чудесатее и чудесатее... (c) Alice
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zor0n
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Re: Ближний Восток
[quote:348b994d9d="ami"]почему-то [i:348b994d9d]некоторые[/i:348b994d9d] любую тему о Ближнем Востоке воспринимают как личное смертельное оскорбление и начинают виндетту..[/quote:348b994d9d]
Не знаю как некоторые, но меня периодические прения на тему "Как нам обустроить Бл. Восток" раздражают. Я - гражданин Израиля, давал присягу в Армии. Мне неприятно слушать "руководящие указания" как нам жить от людей, знакомство которых с Израилем и его геополитической ситуацией ограничивается в лучшем случае передачами "Хочу все знать" от CNN (в худшем - книгами Солодаря).
Не знаю как некоторые, но меня периодические прения на тему "Как нам обустроить Бл. Восток" раздражают. Я - гражданин Израиля, давал присягу в Армии. Мне неприятно слушать "руководящие указания" как нам жить от людей, знакомство которых с Израилем и его геополитической ситуацией ограничивается в лучшем случае передачами "Хочу все знать" от CNN (в худшем - книгами Солодаря).