BBC - "потреотическая"?SK1901 wrote:и создали ее российские потреотические СМИ.Fortinbras wrote:
Ну есть новость,
Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
не угадали. Не хочу я это сказать. Угадывайте дальше. У вас еще две попытки.olis wrote:Хотите сказать что BBC специально дезинформирует русских ?
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
нетFortinbras wrote:BBC - "потреотическая"?SK1901 wrote:и создали ее российские потреотические СМИ.Fortinbras wrote:
Ну есть новость,
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Ну на мой вопрос то ответте: по вашему BBC специально дезинформирует русских или тут что то еше ? Ваша версия ?SK1901 wrote:Гуглю дальше. Нашел форум:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4619158
читаю:
Не, ну это просто праздник души какой-то. Британские власти... сохраняют лицо... на русском языке. И это конечно же все ждали... все русские патриотыI've snatched the rough translation from another forum, because the source is only in Russian (although it is BBC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/uk/2009...y_russia.shtml
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Ход ваших мыслей, в отличие от мыслей Cowboy-а мне непонятенSK1901 wrote:не угадали. Не хочу я это сказать. Угадывайте дальше. У вас еще две попытки.olis wrote:Хотите сказать что BBC специально дезинформирует русских ?
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Протрите глаза, вероятно чего-нибудь обнаружите.Fortinbras wrote:Вы искренне считаете, что коверкая слова, достигаете особого патетического накала в своих филлипиках? А не выглядете просто... несколько странно, скажем.SK1901 wrote: едниственное упоминание этой новости - в издании Russia Today. Так кто в чем не сомневался? Что потреоты будут выколупывать по крупицам "свидетельства" того, что "они нас не любят"? Кто перед кем сохраняет лицо? Потреоты перед Путеным?
Филиппика (philippika греч.)
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
SK1901 специально коверкает слова, в чём чистосердечно признался, а я же просто опечатался. Что довольно очевидно. Кстати, вроде на форуме нельзя цепляться к опечаткам, нет?chepurin wrote:Протрите глаза, вероятно чего-нибудь обнаружите.Fortinbras wrote:Вы искренне считаете, что коверкая слова, достигаете особого патетического накала в своих филлипиках? А не выглядете просто... несколько странно, скажем.SK1901 wrote: едниственное упоминание этой новости - в издании Russia Today. Так кто в чем не сомневался? Что потреоты будут выколупывать по крупицам "свидетельства" того, что "они нас не любят"? Кто перед кем сохраняет лицо? Потреоты перед Путеным?
Филиппика (philippika греч.)
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
фух, нашел, наконец, транскрипт.
•9:17 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Tech problems resolved - we're good to go #Iraq
•9:21 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers describes how No 10 got up to speed with the new Bush Presidency in early 2001 - 'a lot of gaps' in our understanding of them #Iraq
•9:22 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers and Blair's chief of staff went to DC in Jan 01 to 'get a sense of where they were coming from' - met Cheney & Rice #Iraq
•9:23 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says initially their main focuses were missile defence and the Kyoto climate protocol - 'we also touched on Iraq' #Iraq
•9:25 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Bush team were critical of Clinton's personal involvement in the MidEast peace process, planned a different approach #Iraq
•9:26 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says he reported back to London that there would be policy differences between the Admins, but there was also goodwill towards the UK
•9:27 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Prashar asks how big an issue Iraq was for No 10 in 2001. 'It was a significant issue ... Our policy on Iraq was not sustainable.' #Iraq
•9:28 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: We were all under the impression, based on intel, that Iraq was still developing WMD #Iraq
•9:29 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: But there was also concern that our Iraq policy - no fly zones & sanctions - was increasingly unpopular in the Arab world #Iraq
•9:31 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Not true to say containment wasn't working, but the costs involved were quite high and we wanted to reduce risk #Iraq
•9:32 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The incoming Bush Admin couldn't be seen to be 'easing up' on Saddam - so we discussed new ways to deal with him #Iraq
•9:32 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: We discussed indicting Saddam for war crimes, creating alternatives to encourage the Iraqis themselves to get ride of him, etc #Iraq
•9:34 AM: IraqInquiryBlog {He's much more polished, smoother in his delivery than his predecessor Scarlett's performance thusfar} #Iraq
•9:35 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers describes the first Blair/Bush meeting at Camp David in mid-Feb 2001. Iraq was the first issue discussed as Powell had to leave early
•9:36 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Bush wanted a more 'realistic' Iraq policy. Powell suggested replacing sanctions with weapons controls, tightening borders #Iraq
•9:38 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Condoleezza raised regime change but in political not military terms. Post-Saddam Iraq was discussed. There was broad common ground
•9:39 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Powell made clear he was most concerned by chemical & biological weapons. A new UN weapons inspection program was discussed. #Iraq
•9:42 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says he reported back after Camp David & the FCO/Cabinet Office drew up a new policy paper on Iraq through 'til mid-March 2001 #Iraq
•9:44 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: You'd have to ask others why the Dept for International Development was, ah um er ,excluded [from Iraq talks] if indeed they were
•9:45 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Yes, there were political differences: some Departments may have felt the impact of sanctions was greater than the threat Iraq posed
•9:46 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Iraq was seen as a continuing threat - I don't think it was seen as an intensifying threat #Iraq
•9:50 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The FCO policy review looked at a wide range of options; indicting Saddam, tougher border controls, 'political' regime change #Iraq
•9:51 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: How was the new policy decided? Sawers: The Foreign Sec approved it, I told the PM about the Whitehall review, Blair was content
•9:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I don't think policy was discussed by Cabinet Cttee. The country was in the throes of Foot & Mouth Disease, an election months away
•9:54 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The French at this stage were pleasantly surprised by the direction US/UK policy on Iraq was taking #Iraq
•9:56 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers is asked by Lyne whether the Government ever discussed unhitching from such close alignment with the US on Iraq #Iraq
•9:57 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: There was very little appetite for alternatives to containment, for reintegrating Iraq into the international community #Iraq
•9:59 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I don't recall a serious and considered challenge to the existing policy of containment.
•10:00 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: There're a lot of countries around the world where we'd like to see a change of regime - doesn't mean we pursue that actively #Iraq
•10:03 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Russians sank our UN ambitions for 'smart sanctions' [tightly focused on specific goods] for purely commercial reasons #Iraq
•10:05 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Phone evidence plans may be delayed bit.ly
•10:05 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: We considered paying Russians 'a price' - addressing Iraq's debt to Russia - but the Iraqis didn't want it so the Russians refused
•10:10 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Chilcot asks about UK policy on Iraq and the broader MidEast situation, and whether the two interlinked #Iraq
•10:11 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Blair thought we needed active measures in place to 'manage' the Middle East, even if we couldn't solve it at that time #Iraq
•10:13 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Arabs were comfortable with Iraq policy based on containment - they felt threatened by Saddam. They were concerned how we did it
•10:16 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: No prospect of a change in regime in Iraq, even when the Grim Reaper took Saddam, because his brutal sons would take over #Iraq
•10:19 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Freedman: Was Blair fixated on Iraq because of the humanitarian situation or the WMD situation? #Iraq
•10:20 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: You'll hv to ask Blair but he was concerned by both. The primary concern was WMD because he believed the intel - and why shdn't he?
•10:23 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Freedman and Sawers discuss how regime change was effected in Serbia with Milosevic, and how it differed from the sitn in Iraq #Iraq
•10:24 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The US was interested in the idea of trying to indict Saddam for war crimes, but they didn't support using the ICC #Iraq
•10:28 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Attorney General raised the legality of No Fly Zones - in the end he concluded, as long as tests were met, they were legitimate
•10:32 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The fundamental approach of policy was containing Saddam. But not many people thought Saddam would ever rejoin the Int'l community
•10:42 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers moves on chronologically to his arrival in Baghdad in May 2003 - he'd been serving as ambassador to Egypt until then #Iraq
•10:43 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: the FCO said they needed someone of more weight and seniority in Baghad , I thought it was a great opportunity #Iraq
•10:45 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Jack Straw said he wanted me to impose common sense on the ground, Blair wanted me to work closely with the Americans #Iraq
•10:47 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I was the senior Brit on the ground but I was not Paul Bremer's deputy - I exerted influence rather than exercising power #Iraq
•10:48 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: You weren't in the line management, you weren't a deputy, were you really in a position to do anything? #Iraq
•10:49 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I had a seat at the table. The authority was clearly Bremer. We saw each other daily, we worked togther.
•10:51 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: ORHA was not led by Jay Garner. I was disappointed by the quality of senior figures, with the exception of Tim Cross.
•10:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Living conditions were pretty appalling. The heat, no doors on the bathrooms, I had to sleep in a dormitory with lots of other ppl
•10:53 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: There was v limited information flow from Baghdad to London. The media were there but they weren't authoritative in thr assessments
•10:57 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: Even though Blair directed us to set exemplary approach in the South, actually it fell behind in terms of investment & reconstruction
•10:58 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne asks how de-Ba'athification and dissolving the Iraqi army were decided upon - was the UK consulted at all?
•11:00 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: ORHA had been undiscriminating in choosing thr Iraqi partners. When I first met Bremer he raised de-Ba'athification - I reported this
•11:02 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: We met with the Americans again and I suggested we limit de-Ba'athification - I suggested limiting the scope, thought US had agreed
•11:03 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: I wasn't aware that the policy had already been decided in Washington. Lyne: This was stitched up in DC without consulting the UK?
•11:04 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: This wasn't raised with me, I don't know if the UK Embassy in DC or people in Whitehall were aware of it #Iraq
•11:05 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: But take this in context - Bremer only proposed excluding 0.1% of Iraqi population - 25x fewer than happened in post-Nazi Germany
•11:06 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: There was real anger among the populace that some of these people were returning to positions of power post-Saddam #Iraq
•11:08 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: True to say the coalition took it too far, but de-Ba'athification was necessary and it didn't contribute to the insurgency #Iraq
•11:09 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: We had to show that the Ba'athist era was over and the Iraqis weren't going to be suppressed again by Saddam and his henchmen #Iraq
•11:10 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne perseveres, says the Serbian and Nazi German analogies are inaccurate, says the situation in Baghdad was 'pretty unsatisfactory' #Iraq
•11:11 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers maintains that it was an important decision, concedes Washington was probably influenced by Iraqi exiles like Ahmed Chalabi
•11:13 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: Did No 10 raise its concern or discontent with the US after the de-Ba'athification decision? Sawer: Think Manning raised it with Condi
•11:15 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: What about the de-militarisation of the Iraqi Army, were we consulted about that?
•11:16 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: Bremer mentioned it at our first meeting, which I reported to London. In reality the Iraqi army disbanded itself, dispersed post-war
•11:18 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: People realised a step needed to be taken - either recall the Iraqi army or start afresh
•11:21 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers consults a review of the decision to de-militarise by the US thinktank RAND - looks like might be here bit.ly #Iraq
•11:23 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Chilcot asks whether the disbanding of the Iraqi army contributed to the insurgency later in 2003. Sawers: Hard to answer that. #Iraq
•11:24 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The military campaign to defeat Iraq and its army was only ever half won - in the end the Iraqi army melted away #Iraq
•11:25 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: By the end of 2003 there were all sorts of people around Iraq, the Ba'athist remnants, fedayeen, AQ-linked units, sundry jihadists
•11:26 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The fundamental problem was not de-Ba'athification or demilitarisation, it was that the Ba'athists were never properly defeated
•11:28 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne asks why UK troops didn't go to assist the Americans in Baghdad when security began to deteriorate #Iraq
•11:30 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I discussed this with Gen Mike Jackson - we thought part of the problem was the US army's Darth Vader image - wrap-around glasses,
•11:30 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: flak jackets, no real engagement with the Iraqi people. We debated bringing up a contingent of Paras and it was discussed
•11:31 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: but the Chiefs of Staff decided in the end not to do it. Bremer told Blair he regretted that we hadn't done it. #Iraq
•11:33 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: When I arrived in Baghdad I thought the US troops' posture was wrong, they hadn't transitioned from warfare or engaged the Iraqis
•11:34 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I realised the post-war period would be tougher than the war itself - troop numbers were slowed down but that eventually reversed
•11:37 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I do think we influenced Bremer's decisions - eg on engaging with the UN, on the CPA's legal basis, on the Governing Council
•11:38 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: You may say this wasn't comprehensive - I'm not saying it was - but I do think we had more influence than our numbers suggested
•11:39 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I persuaded Bremer not to reconstitute the death penalty during the period of Coalition control of Iraq #Iraq
•11:42 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Only when Blair visited did Whitehall realise that the level of support from London for us was not as energised as it might've been
•11:45 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers describes efforts the US, UN & UK made towards establishing an Iraqi political council that might one day take up the reins from them
•11:48 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Governing Council was formed July 13, had very clear powers - it nominated its own ministerial appointments - a big step forward
•11:49 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Many of its figures are still prominent. Some have fallen by the wayside, one or two have died or been killed #Iraq
•11:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawyers describes UN/US/UK relations: Bremer was careful to preserve his authority, didn't want to cede to the UN
•11:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: But de Mello's support for the political process was essential for it to be credible. I acted as a bait between the two #Iraq
•11:54 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: De Mello and Bremer differed on things like the degree of force US troops used in security patrols #Iraq
•11:55 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I was sympathetic to de Mello's concerns about detention facilities - which would later go sour with Abu Ghraib
•11:57 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I found that London was responsive to my reports, I sent over 100 reports in my three months in Baghdad
•11:59 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Gilbert returns to the de-Ba'athification issue. Sawers: I put down my reservation, Bremer felt his authority came from Washington
•12:00 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Limiting the exclusions to 1% of the Ba'ath party seemed to me not a bad outcome.
•12:02 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I could see the Coalition civilian structures were not working in the South - there was a serious leadership problem with CPA South
•12:03 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: To have a senior diplomat who'd converted to Sunni Islam and had a rather individual way of running his personal life was not ideal
•12:05 PM: IraqInquiryBlog (He's talking about the then-CPA South chief Ole Woehler Olsen, a Dane)
•12:06 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says he didn't get formally involved in concerns about British troop levels in the South - he left that to the military #Iraq
•12:08 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The US and UK both hoped to be able to do army numbers 'draw-down' [reduction] more rapidly than was actually possible #Iraq
•12:10 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Chilcot moves to end the session, but Sawers returns to the RAND report which concluded that the CPA performed fairly well during its life
•12:16 PM: IraqInquiryBlog And with that, he was away - back perhaps to the Faraday-caged palace that is MI6's headquarters bit.ly
•12:19 PM: IraqInquiryBlog The Inquiry doesn't sit again until 14h00 on Monday when the generals come back to discuss the view from Basra & Baghdad in 2004 #Iraq
•12:19 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sir John Sawers returns later in the week, as does Sir Jeremy Greenstock #Iraq
•9:17 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Tech problems resolved - we're good to go #Iraq
•9:21 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers describes how No 10 got up to speed with the new Bush Presidency in early 2001 - 'a lot of gaps' in our understanding of them #Iraq
•9:22 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers and Blair's chief of staff went to DC in Jan 01 to 'get a sense of where they were coming from' - met Cheney & Rice #Iraq
•9:23 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says initially their main focuses were missile defence and the Kyoto climate protocol - 'we also touched on Iraq' #Iraq
•9:25 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Bush team were critical of Clinton's personal involvement in the MidEast peace process, planned a different approach #Iraq
•9:26 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says he reported back to London that there would be policy differences between the Admins, but there was also goodwill towards the UK
•9:27 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Prashar asks how big an issue Iraq was for No 10 in 2001. 'It was a significant issue ... Our policy on Iraq was not sustainable.' #Iraq
•9:28 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: We were all under the impression, based on intel, that Iraq was still developing WMD #Iraq
•9:29 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: But there was also concern that our Iraq policy - no fly zones & sanctions - was increasingly unpopular in the Arab world #Iraq
•9:31 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Not true to say containment wasn't working, but the costs involved were quite high and we wanted to reduce risk #Iraq
•9:32 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The incoming Bush Admin couldn't be seen to be 'easing up' on Saddam - so we discussed new ways to deal with him #Iraq
•9:32 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: We discussed indicting Saddam for war crimes, creating alternatives to encourage the Iraqis themselves to get ride of him, etc #Iraq
•9:34 AM: IraqInquiryBlog {He's much more polished, smoother in his delivery than his predecessor Scarlett's performance thusfar} #Iraq
•9:35 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers describes the first Blair/Bush meeting at Camp David in mid-Feb 2001. Iraq was the first issue discussed as Powell had to leave early
•9:36 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Bush wanted a more 'realistic' Iraq policy. Powell suggested replacing sanctions with weapons controls, tightening borders #Iraq
•9:38 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Condoleezza raised regime change but in political not military terms. Post-Saddam Iraq was discussed. There was broad common ground
•9:39 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Powell made clear he was most concerned by chemical & biological weapons. A new UN weapons inspection program was discussed. #Iraq
•9:42 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says he reported back after Camp David & the FCO/Cabinet Office drew up a new policy paper on Iraq through 'til mid-March 2001 #Iraq
•9:44 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: You'd have to ask others why the Dept for International Development was, ah um er ,excluded [from Iraq talks] if indeed they were
•9:45 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Yes, there were political differences: some Departments may have felt the impact of sanctions was greater than the threat Iraq posed
•9:46 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Iraq was seen as a continuing threat - I don't think it was seen as an intensifying threat #Iraq
•9:50 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The FCO policy review looked at a wide range of options; indicting Saddam, tougher border controls, 'political' regime change #Iraq
•9:51 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: How was the new policy decided? Sawers: The Foreign Sec approved it, I told the PM about the Whitehall review, Blair was content
•9:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I don't think policy was discussed by Cabinet Cttee. The country was in the throes of Foot & Mouth Disease, an election months away
•9:54 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The French at this stage were pleasantly surprised by the direction US/UK policy on Iraq was taking #Iraq
•9:56 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers is asked by Lyne whether the Government ever discussed unhitching from such close alignment with the US on Iraq #Iraq
•9:57 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: There was very little appetite for alternatives to containment, for reintegrating Iraq into the international community #Iraq
•9:59 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I don't recall a serious and considered challenge to the existing policy of containment.
•10:00 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: There're a lot of countries around the world where we'd like to see a change of regime - doesn't mean we pursue that actively #Iraq
•10:03 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Russians sank our UN ambitions for 'smart sanctions' [tightly focused on specific goods] for purely commercial reasons #Iraq
•10:05 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Phone evidence plans may be delayed bit.ly
•10:05 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: We considered paying Russians 'a price' - addressing Iraq's debt to Russia - but the Iraqis didn't want it so the Russians refused
•10:10 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Chilcot asks about UK policy on Iraq and the broader MidEast situation, and whether the two interlinked #Iraq
•10:11 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Blair thought we needed active measures in place to 'manage' the Middle East, even if we couldn't solve it at that time #Iraq
•10:13 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Arabs were comfortable with Iraq policy based on containment - they felt threatened by Saddam. They were concerned how we did it
•10:16 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: No prospect of a change in regime in Iraq, even when the Grim Reaper took Saddam, because his brutal sons would take over #Iraq
•10:19 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Freedman: Was Blair fixated on Iraq because of the humanitarian situation or the WMD situation? #Iraq
•10:20 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: You'll hv to ask Blair but he was concerned by both. The primary concern was WMD because he believed the intel - and why shdn't he?
•10:23 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Freedman and Sawers discuss how regime change was effected in Serbia with Milosevic, and how it differed from the sitn in Iraq #Iraq
•10:24 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The US was interested in the idea of trying to indict Saddam for war crimes, but they didn't support using the ICC #Iraq
•10:28 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Attorney General raised the legality of No Fly Zones - in the end he concluded, as long as tests were met, they were legitimate
•10:32 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The fundamental approach of policy was containing Saddam. But not many people thought Saddam would ever rejoin the Int'l community
•10:42 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers moves on chronologically to his arrival in Baghdad in May 2003 - he'd been serving as ambassador to Egypt until then #Iraq
•10:43 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: the FCO said they needed someone of more weight and seniority in Baghad , I thought it was a great opportunity #Iraq
•10:45 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Jack Straw said he wanted me to impose common sense on the ground, Blair wanted me to work closely with the Americans #Iraq
•10:47 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I was the senior Brit on the ground but I was not Paul Bremer's deputy - I exerted influence rather than exercising power #Iraq
•10:48 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: You weren't in the line management, you weren't a deputy, were you really in a position to do anything? #Iraq
•10:49 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I had a seat at the table. The authority was clearly Bremer. We saw each other daily, we worked togther.
•10:51 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: ORHA was not led by Jay Garner. I was disappointed by the quality of senior figures, with the exception of Tim Cross.
•10:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Living conditions were pretty appalling. The heat, no doors on the bathrooms, I had to sleep in a dormitory with lots of other ppl
•10:53 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: There was v limited information flow from Baghdad to London. The media were there but they weren't authoritative in thr assessments
•10:57 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: Even though Blair directed us to set exemplary approach in the South, actually it fell behind in terms of investment & reconstruction
•10:58 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne asks how de-Ba'athification and dissolving the Iraqi army were decided upon - was the UK consulted at all?
•11:00 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: ORHA had been undiscriminating in choosing thr Iraqi partners. When I first met Bremer he raised de-Ba'athification - I reported this
•11:02 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: We met with the Americans again and I suggested we limit de-Ba'athification - I suggested limiting the scope, thought US had agreed
•11:03 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: I wasn't aware that the policy had already been decided in Washington. Lyne: This was stitched up in DC without consulting the UK?
•11:04 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: This wasn't raised with me, I don't know if the UK Embassy in DC or people in Whitehall were aware of it #Iraq
•11:05 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: But take this in context - Bremer only proposed excluding 0.1% of Iraqi population - 25x fewer than happened in post-Nazi Germany
•11:06 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: There was real anger among the populace that some of these people were returning to positions of power post-Saddam #Iraq
•11:08 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: True to say the coalition took it too far, but de-Ba'athification was necessary and it didn't contribute to the insurgency #Iraq
•11:09 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: We had to show that the Ba'athist era was over and the Iraqis weren't going to be suppressed again by Saddam and his henchmen #Iraq
•11:10 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne perseveres, says the Serbian and Nazi German analogies are inaccurate, says the situation in Baghdad was 'pretty unsatisfactory' #Iraq
•11:11 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers maintains that it was an important decision, concedes Washington was probably influenced by Iraqi exiles like Ahmed Chalabi
•11:13 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: Did No 10 raise its concern or discontent with the US after the de-Ba'athification decision? Sawer: Think Manning raised it with Condi
•11:15 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne: What about the de-militarisation of the Iraqi Army, were we consulted about that?
•11:16 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: Bremer mentioned it at our first meeting, which I reported to London. In reality the Iraqi army disbanded itself, dispersed post-war
•11:18 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawer: People realised a step needed to be taken - either recall the Iraqi army or start afresh
•11:21 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers consults a review of the decision to de-militarise by the US thinktank RAND - looks like might be here bit.ly #Iraq
•11:23 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Chilcot asks whether the disbanding of the Iraqi army contributed to the insurgency later in 2003. Sawers: Hard to answer that. #Iraq
•11:24 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The military campaign to defeat Iraq and its army was only ever half won - in the end the Iraqi army melted away #Iraq
•11:25 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: By the end of 2003 there were all sorts of people around Iraq, the Ba'athist remnants, fedayeen, AQ-linked units, sundry jihadists
•11:26 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The fundamental problem was not de-Ba'athification or demilitarisation, it was that the Ba'athists were never properly defeated
•11:28 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Lyne asks why UK troops didn't go to assist the Americans in Baghdad when security began to deteriorate #Iraq
•11:30 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I discussed this with Gen Mike Jackson - we thought part of the problem was the US army's Darth Vader image - wrap-around glasses,
•11:30 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: flak jackets, no real engagement with the Iraqi people. We debated bringing up a contingent of Paras and it was discussed
•11:31 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: but the Chiefs of Staff decided in the end not to do it. Bremer told Blair he regretted that we hadn't done it. #Iraq
•11:33 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: When I arrived in Baghdad I thought the US troops' posture was wrong, they hadn't transitioned from warfare or engaged the Iraqis
•11:34 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I realised the post-war period would be tougher than the war itself - troop numbers were slowed down but that eventually reversed
•11:37 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I do think we influenced Bremer's decisions - eg on engaging with the UN, on the CPA's legal basis, on the Governing Council
•11:38 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: You may say this wasn't comprehensive - I'm not saying it was - but I do think we had more influence than our numbers suggested
•11:39 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I persuaded Bremer not to reconstitute the death penalty during the period of Coalition control of Iraq #Iraq
•11:42 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Only when Blair visited did Whitehall realise that the level of support from London for us was not as energised as it might've been
•11:45 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers describes efforts the US, UN & UK made towards establishing an Iraqi political council that might one day take up the reins from them
•11:48 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The Governing Council was formed July 13, had very clear powers - it nominated its own ministerial appointments - a big step forward
•11:49 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Many of its figures are still prominent. Some have fallen by the wayside, one or two have died or been killed #Iraq
•11:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawyers describes UN/US/UK relations: Bremer was careful to preserve his authority, didn't want to cede to the UN
•11:52 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: But de Mello's support for the political process was essential for it to be credible. I acted as a bait between the two #Iraq
•11:54 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: De Mello and Bremer differed on things like the degree of force US troops used in security patrols #Iraq
•11:55 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I was sympathetic to de Mello's concerns about detention facilities - which would later go sour with Abu Ghraib
•11:57 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I found that London was responsive to my reports, I sent over 100 reports in my three months in Baghdad
•11:59 AM: IraqInquiryBlog Gilbert returns to the de-Ba'athification issue. Sawers: I put down my reservation, Bremer felt his authority came from Washington
•12:00 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: Limiting the exclusions to 1% of the Ba'ath party seemed to me not a bad outcome.
•12:02 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: I could see the Coalition civilian structures were not working in the South - there was a serious leadership problem with CPA South
•12:03 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: To have a senior diplomat who'd converted to Sunni Islam and had a rather individual way of running his personal life was not ideal
•12:05 PM: IraqInquiryBlog (He's talking about the then-CPA South chief Ole Woehler Olsen, a Dane)
•12:06 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers says he didn't get formally involved in concerns about British troop levels in the South - he left that to the military #Iraq
•12:08 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sawers: The US and UK both hoped to be able to do army numbers 'draw-down' [reduction] more rapidly than was actually possible #Iraq
•12:10 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Chilcot moves to end the session, but Sawers returns to the RAND report which concluded that the CPA performed fairly well during its life
•12:16 PM: IraqInquiryBlog And with that, he was away - back perhaps to the Faraday-caged palace that is MI6's headquarters bit.ly
•12:19 PM: IraqInquiryBlog The Inquiry doesn't sit again until 14h00 on Monday when the generals come back to discuss the view from Basra & Baghdad in 2004 #Iraq
•12:19 PM: IraqInquiryBlog Sir John Sawers returns later in the week, as does Sir Jeremy Greenstock #Iraq
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
И чего ? Стоило так напрягаться то ? Или вы тренируетесь Гуглом пользоваться ?
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Я думаю, что вы намеренно исковеркали это слово. И без вашего чистосердечного признания в опечатке, мне будет довольно сложно вам поверить.Fortinbras wrote:SK1901 специально коверкает слова, в чём чистосердечно признался, а я же просто опечатался. Что довольно очевидно. Кстати, вроде на форуме нельзя цепляться к опечаткам, нет?chepurin wrote:Протрите глаза, вероятно чего-нибудь обнаружите.Fortinbras wrote:Вы искренне считаете, что коверкая слова, достигаете особого патетического накала в своих филлипиках? А не выглядете просто... несколько странно, скажем.SK1901 wrote: едниственное упоминание этой новости - в издании Russia Today. Так кто в чем не сомневался? Что потреоты будут выколупывать по крупицам "свидетельства" того, что "они нас не любят"? Кто перед кем сохраняет лицо? Потреоты перед Путеным?
Филиппика (philippika греч.)
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Конечно стоило. Это ж прикольно. Теперь полная картинка. Шеф британской разведки три часа говорит о войне в Ираке, о предшествующих событиях и их участниках. Российские СМИ находят в транскрипте этого дела строчку со слово "Russia", додумывают десять своих строк, лепят смачный заголовок и, блюдо готово: "Враги во всём винят Россию". Русская версия BBC тоже что-то пишет на эту тему. Российские потреоты кушают это блюдо и пылают праведным гневом.olis wrote:И чего ? Стоило так напрягаться то ? Или вы тренируетесь Гуглом пользоваться ?
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Ответьте:SK1901 wrote:Конечно стоило. Это ж прикольно. Теперь полная картинка. Шеф британской разведки три часа говорит о войне в Ираке, о предшествующих событиях и их участниках. Российские СМИ находят в транскрипте этого дела строчку со слово "Russia", додумывают десять своих строк, лепят смачный заголовок и, блюдо готово: "Враги во всём винят Россию". Русская версия BBC тоже что-то пишет на эту тему. Российские потреоты кушают это блюдо и пылают праведным гневом.olis wrote:И чего ? Стоило так напрягаться то ? Или вы тренируетесь Гуглом пользоваться ?
1. То что написала ВВС - правда или нет, по вашему ?
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
БиБиСи правильно процитировала фрагменты доклада Соерза, касающиеся участия России в предвоенных событиях.olis wrote:Ответьте:
1. То что написала ВВС - правда или нет, по вашему ?
Статья однако не упоминает то, что это лишь фрагменты и создает ложное впечателение о том , что Соерз считает это участие главным, ключевым или вовсе даже единственным повлиявшим на дальнейшее развитие событий.
Статья не упоминает, что в докладе было названо не мнее дюжины других событий, повлиявших на начало войны.
Незадачливый читатель может подумать, что Соерз появился перед публикой, сказаль эти слова, развернулся и ушел.
Более одиозные (российские) сми не только создают это ложное впечатление, но и напрямую лгут на эту тему.
Конкретно заголовок этого топика высосан из пальца.
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
А.SK1901 wrote:Российские потреоты кушают это блюдо и пылают праведным гневом.
Кушаю beef jerky и пылаю.
под мостом :-p
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Приятного аппетита. Так вы не ответили, кто перед кем пытается сохранить лицо, делая публикации с громкими заголовками в русскоязычных СМИ.mr. Hide wrote:А.SK1901 wrote:Российские потреоты кушают это блюдо и пылают праведным гневом.
Кушаю beef jerky и пылаю.
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Т.е. ВВС тенденциозно подает информацию ? А где ложь от РБК, можно полюбопытствовать ?SK1901 wrote:БиБиСи правильно процитировала фрагменты доклада Соерза, касающиеся участия России в предвоенных событиях.olis wrote:Ответьте:
1. То что написала ВВС - правда или нет, по вашему ?
Статья однако не упоминает то, что это лишь фрагменты и создает ложное впечателение о том , что Соерз считает это участие главным, ключевым или вовсе даже единственным повлиявшим на дальнейшее развитие событий.
Статья не упоминает, что в докладе было названо не мнее дюжины других событий, повлиявших на начало войны.
Незадачливый читатель может подумать, что Соерз появился перед публикой, сказаль эти слова, развернулся и ушел.
Более одиозные (российские) сми не только создают это ложное впечатление, но и напрямую лгут на эту тему.
Конкретно заголовок этого топика высосан из пальца.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
BBC Russian рвёт анус за честь королевы?SK1901 wrote: Приятного аппетита. Так вы не ответили, кто перед кем пытается сохранить лицо, делая публикации с громкими заголовками в русскоязычных СМИ.
под мостом :-p
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Джерки, между прочим, зубы здорово стачивают.mr. Hide wrote:А. Кушаю beef jerky и пылаю.SK1901 wrote:Российские потреоты кушают это блюдо и пылают праведным гневом.
Last edited by Billy-goat on 11 Dec 2009 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
...Life is unfair...
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Ну не томите нас. Неужто BBC пытается сохранить лицо перед Путиным?SK1901 wrote:Приятного аппетита. Так вы не ответили, кто перед кем пытается сохранить лицо, делая публикации с громкими заголовками в русскоязычных СМИ.mr. Hide wrote:А.SK1901 wrote:Российские потреоты кушают это блюдо и пылают праведным гневом.
Кушаю beef jerky и пылаю.
Кстати вы от всех журналистов в мире требуете что об они говорили не просто правду, а всю правду? И от CNN с FOX тоже? Впрочем, можете не отвечать. И так все ясно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Ну или просто недостаточно качественно.olis wrote:Т.е. ВВС тенденциозно подает информацию ?
да хотя бы в заголовке.А где ложь от РБК, можно полюбопытствовать ?
Ща я еще пример приведу, погодите.
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
дада ночей не спят.mr. Hide wrote:BBC Russian рвёт анус за честь королевы?SK1901 wrote: Приятного аппетита. Так вы не ответили, кто перед кем пытается сохранить лицо, делая публикации с громкими заголовками в русскоязычных СМИ.
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
Обещаный пример. Шеф российской разведки делает большой доклад о войне в Южной Осетии. Ему собрали информацию о куче факторов, имевших то или иное отношение к конфликту и предшествующим событиям. Он перечисляет их все.
В частности в докладе где-то упоминается, что начало войны совпало с открытием олимипиады в Пекине, что помешало оперативной реакции мирового сообщества.
На следующий день выходят статьи:
Шеф СВР: на войну в Грузии повлияла Олимпиада.
и далее в более одиозной прессе:
Российская разведка обвиняет МОК в помощи Грузинам
Российские власти заявляют, что войну в Южной Осетии спровоцировал Китай
Россия обвинила Пекин в обстреле Цхинвала
всё это обсуждается на форумах, народ многозначительно пишет "ну кто б сомневался", говорит что Путин хочет сохранить своё лицо, и что вообще кругом враги.
Ваша реакция?
В частности в докладе где-то упоминается, что начало войны совпало с открытием олимипиады в Пекине, что помешало оперативной реакции мирового сообщества.
На следующий день выходят статьи:
Шеф СВР: на войну в Грузии повлияла Олимпиада.
и далее в более одиозной прессе:
Российская разведка обвиняет МОК в помощи Грузинам
Российские власти заявляют, что войну в Южной Осетии спровоцировал Китай
Россия обвинила Пекин в обстреле Цхинвала
всё это обсуждается на форумах, народ многозначительно пишет "ну кто б сомневался", говорит что Путин хочет сохранить своё лицо, и что вообще кругом враги.
Ваша реакция?
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
"Глава Ми-6: Россия виновата в войне в Ираке" и где тут ложь ? "Выступая в четверг перед депутатами британского парламента, он заявил, что именно Россия ответственна за провал попыток ввести в 2001 году против режима Саддама Хусейна так называемые "разумные санкции", которые позволили бы избежать вооруженного столкновения."SK1901 wrote:да хотя бы в заголовке.olis wrote: А где ложь от РБК, можно полюбопытствовать ?
Ща я еще пример приведу, погодите.
Есть еще что то ?
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
вот прямо там и ложь. Покажите где он сказал или хотя бы дал понять, что эти санкции предотвратили бы войну, или что после их не введения (в 2001-м году!) война стала неизбежной.olis wrote:"Глава Ми-6: Россия виновата в войне в Ираке" и где тут ложь ?SK1901 wrote:да хотя бы в заголовке.olis wrote: А где ложь от РБК, можно полюбопытствовать ?
Ща я еще пример приведу, погодите.
Путин конечно не идеален. Но альтернативы ему на сегодня нет. И на завтра тоже. По этому он должен править пожизненно.
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Re: Вы уже в курсе, что Россия виновата в начале войны в Ираке?
"так называемые "разумные санкции", которые позволили бы избежать вооруженного столкновения."SK1901 wrote:вот прямо там и ложь. Покажите где он сказал или хотя бы дал понять, что эти санкции предотвратили бы войну, или что после их не введения (в 2001-м году!) война стала неизбежной.olis wrote:"Глава Ми-6: Россия виновата в войне в Ираке" и где тут ложь ?SK1901 wrote:да хотя бы в заголовке.olis wrote: А где ложь от РБК, можно полюбопытствовать ?
Ща я еще пример приведу, погодите.